Pentax full frame rumour

ElJamoquio · 08-28-2012, 10:35 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

The only professional nature photographer who specificially mention Pentax AF

So what you're saying here is that there's one professional nature photographer who shoots Pentax.

**Rondec** · 08-28-2012, 10:37 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Funny. The 'pros' who want APS-C aren't wedding photographers. With the D800 it's a moot point, though, there's really nobody who should want APS-C.

Actually, nearly all of the pros in my area shoot with APS-C. When you have to expense out every new purchase, you are a lot more careful with new glass and body purchases and are less likely to jump on the up-grade band wagon. Most of the pros in my rural area are using cameras that are a generation old at the minimum -- Canon 50Ds or Nikon D300s. The reality is that clients can't tell the difference between formats for the most part. My wife shoots professionally, portraiture and weddings, with two K5s and she has never had anyone complain to her that the photos had "too much depth of field" or that they would have been better had she used a full frame camera.

I understand the desire for full frame, I just think that it is something appeals more to people who shoot as a hobby and have extra money in their pockets than to professional photographers.

ElJamoquio · 08-28-2012, 10:47 AM

Funny. I watch a pro almost every week (long story) shoot a wedding. I recall one APS-C in the past year or so. This is weddings near San Jose, CA at a cheaper facility.

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by TomTextura

I'm skeptical about how many photographers are going to want to spend top dollar to get all the highest grade gear possible for APS-C just to end up being a hop and a skip away investment-wise from having a full frame set up but not have the option available to them. Pentax does have a great set of lenses with the DA Limited primes. Zooms are something of a different matter. And other than being able to reach truly wide angle focal lengths, FF lenses work plenty well on APS-C..

The mistake here is the assumption that most people actually want FF. The majority could care less about the exact size of the sensor but is concerned with price and the output of the camera. The majority of digital shooters are used to smaller formats and are happy with it. The idea of FF as a goal for everyone is a false one and for many a larger sensor is a drawback. Better sensors make the case for smaller ones stronger.

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

So what you're saying here is that there's one professional nature photographer who shoots Pentax.

I'm saying AF is good enough for the most demanding professional needs.
By all means, make AF as fast and accurate as possible, but I have yet to encounter a situation when it was the AF that failed and not me...

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

Actually, nearly all of the pros in my area shoot with APS-C. When you have to expense out every new purchase, you are a lot more careful with new glass and body purchases and are less likely to jump on the up-grade band wagon. Most of the pros in my rural area are using cameras that are a generation old at the minimum -- Canon 50Ds or Nikon D300s. The reality is that clients can't tell the difference between formats for the most part. My wife shoots professionally, portraiture and weddings, with two K5s and she has never had anyone complain to her that the photos had "too much depth of field" or that they would have been better had she used a full frame camera.

I understand the desire for full frame, I just think that it is something appeals more to people who shoot as a hobby and have extra money in their pockets than to professional photographers.

Exactly the same as a friend of mine who has his own fine-art gallery and shoots weddings on the sides says. He is also the only pro I've met with an FF camera incidentally bought used. When his gallery burned down last year (with his camera gear) the first thing he bought was a Canon 7D. He bought a 5DIII second hand. He says no client can tell whats shot with what (I can't either. Maybe if the same image were displayed side by side megalarge). He like the FF due to the bigger finder. The 7D is the main tool.

atlnq9 · 08-28-2012, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

The only professional nature photographer who specificially mention Pentax AF (SAFOX V) says it gives just as many keepers as his Canon 1-series camera. This is in print in a published book with photos of dancing Sifakas something that is much harder to shoot than weddings. Those who whine about AF are usually amateurs to make an excuse to buy a new toy. Pros manage to make AF work regardless of camera. As a nature photographer I have never encountered a situation where AF isn't fast enough.

People always want better. I remember trying to track moving subjects with manual focus. I remember when I loved the Canon eos 3 which had the eye controled focus. It focused where your eye was looking in the viewfinder, well 75% of the time. I wish Canon had continued to develop that technology.

As far as Pentax AF goes it isn't too bad. It works fine for my wildlife images 95% of the time even on the 645D. The only time it becomes a hindrance is in tracking AF; but, I think that is more precision/software than slow AF speed. Granted I don't use SDM lenses too much; primarily the screw driven 645 lenses and my k mount FA* 300mm 2.8 with the focus limit switch... But the tracking AF can be made up for relativly easy by bumping ISO and shooting smaller aperture. Higher ISO is better than no image.

I want something very similar to the K5 (aps-c) still and they had better not change to a new battery on me. I am not likely to buy into a FF from any make for a couple more years as I have the 645D. Aps-c and the 645D make a very nice pair. FF is just pointless. When I need super telephoto I have the K5. When I want to capture all the detail I have the 645D. Perfect combo.

Last edited by atlnq9; 08-28-2012 at 11:29 AM.

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 12:01 PM

Originally posted by atlnq9

People always want better. I remember trying to track moving subjects with manual focus. I remember when I loved the Canon eos 3 which had the eye controled focus. It focused where your eye was looking in the viewfinder, well 75% of the time. I wish Canon had continued to develop that technology.

As far as Pentax AF goes it isn't too bad. It works fine for my wildlife images 95% of the time even on the 645D. The only time it becomes a hindrance is in tracking AF; but, I think that is more precision/software than slow AF speed. Granted I don't use SDM lenses too much; primarily the screw driven 645 lenses and my k mount FA* 300mm 2.8 with the focus limit switch... But the tracking AF can be made up for relativly easy by bumping ISO and shooting smaller aperture. Higher ISO is better than no image.

I want something very similar to the K5 (aps-c) still and they had better not change to a new battery on me. I am not likely to buy into a FF from any make for a couple more years as I have the 645D. Aps-c and the 645D make a very nice pair. FF is just pointless. When I need super telephoto I have the K5. When I want to capture all the detail I have the 645D. Perfect combo.

I agree that APS + MF Digital is a perfect combo. I shoot most of my landscapes with wide angles and standard lenses; only about 5% with telephotos. So my ideal setup is 645D with 33-55 + 75mm (or the coming 28-45(?)) + an APS camera for the tele, wildlife, macro + handheld work (small kit zoom). A complete MF setup only when near my car (I own the 120 macro + the 150-300).

I did the AF "test" years ago when the MZ-S came out. The general consensus among Canon shooters was that AF was useless for macro. I set up the camera with an insect on a straw moving back and forth in the wind in close to 1:1 magnification and the camera had an 80% hitrate in back and forth movements; very good. Next, after about and hour trail and error (the trial and error was to keep the sensor on the insect), I managed to get the camera to track fast moving bees in flight with the 200 macro. To me AF is of academic interest as the shortcomings are mine.

**Rondec** · 08-28-2012, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Funny. I watch a pro almost every week (long story) shoot a wedding. I recall one APS-C in the past year or so. This is weddings near San Jose, CA at a cheaper facility.

Right. You live in a much wealthier area than I do. Average wedding photographer in my area bills around a thousand dollars to shoot a wedding. Most will do a high school senior shoot for 150 dollars (disk included). They are scraping by.

The average professional photographer takes in an income of just over 50,000 dollars a year in the United States. In rural areas, they take in far less, because people just can't afford to pay high rates for photos. It is definitely a tough field to be in. Just saying...

Supernaut · 08-28-2012, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

I am not sure about their sources ... but the Moderator of a large German Nikon forum made a forum announcement for Sep. 12/13 and 1300€ for the Nikon D600 FF launch. That would be below the APSC K-3/K-S price as it is currently rumored.

At this price, I see Pentaxians drain out quickly

If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€.

Some of us here have predicted cheap FF cameras here for a long time. If we saw it, Pentax must have and I would be surprised if Pentax don't have a FF soon.

RonHendriks1966 · 08-28-2012, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by Supernaut

If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€.

Some of us here have predicted cheap FF cameras here for a long time. If we saw it, Pentax must have and I would be surprised if Pentax don't have a FF soon.

This is already the case. The K-5 Silver Special Edition with the Silver 40mm started out at 1399 euro and is now at 1249 euro and is not moving.
Pentax K-5 + 40mm XS Silver Special Edition Kit - Digitale Camera's bij CameraNU.nl

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Supernaut

If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€.
.

Why? Don't you think people who want crop cameras buy crop cameras and those who want FF buy FF?

Supernaut · 08-28-2012, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Why? Don't you think people who want crop cameras buy crop cameras and those who want FF buy FF?

Not to the extent that it will keep the already small market share the same or make it bigger. FF will soon be the main selling point instead of todays megapxels and high iso.

**Pål Jensen** · 08-28-2012, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Supernaut

Not to the extent that it will keep the already small market share the same or make it bigger. FF will soon be the main selling point instead of todays megapxels and high iso.

How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall.....
BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors. It might even cost more than some FF bodies but does those who want such an Olympus care?

fikkser · 08-28-2012, 01:31 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall.....
BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors...

They must have read your posts. :-)

08-28-2012, 01:24 PM	#899
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Supernaut Not to the extent that it will keep the already small market share the same or make it bigger. FF will soon be the main selling point instead of todays megapxels and high iso. How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall..... BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors. It might even cost more than some FF bodies but does those who want such an Olympus care? Last edited by Pål Jensen; 08-28-2012 at 01:31 PM.

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08-28-2012, 10:35 AM	#886
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Pål Jensen The only professional nature photographer who specificially mention Pentax AF So what you're saying here is that there's one professional nature photographer who shoots Pentax.

08-28-2012, 10:37 AM - 1 Like	#887
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Funny. The 'pros' who want APS-C aren't wedding photographers. With the D800 it's a moot point, though, there's really nobody who should want APS-C. Actually, nearly all of the pros in my area shoot with APS-C. When you have to expense out every new purchase, you are a lot more careful with new glass and body purchases and are less likely to jump on the up-grade band wagon. Most of the pros in my rural area are using cameras that are a generation old at the minimum -- Canon 50Ds or Nikon D300s. The reality is that clients can't tell the difference between formats for the most part. My wife shoots professionally, portraiture and weddings, with two K5s and she has never had anyone complain to her that the photos had "too much depth of field" or that they would have been better had she used a full frame camera. I understand the desire for full frame, I just think that it is something appeals more to people who shoot as a hobby and have extra money in their pockets than to professional photographers.

08-28-2012, 10:47 AM	#888
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Funny. I watch a pro almost every week (long story) shoot a wedding. I recall one APS-C in the past year or so. This is weddings near San Jose, CA at a cheaper facility.

08-28-2012, 10:49 AM	#889
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by TomTextura I'm skeptical about how many photographers are going to want to spend top dollar to get all the highest grade gear possible for APS-C just to end up being a hop and a skip away investment-wise from having a full frame set up but not have the option available to them. Pentax does have a great set of lenses with the DA Limited primes. Zooms are something of a different matter. And other than being able to reach truly wide angle focal lengths, FF lenses work plenty well on APS-C.. The mistake here is the assumption that most people actually want FF. The majority could care less about the exact size of the sensor but is concerned with price and the output of the camera. The majority of digital shooters are used to smaller formats and are happy with it. The idea of FF as a goal for everyone is a false one and for many a larger sensor is a drawback. Better sensors make the case for smaller ones stronger.

08-28-2012, 10:53 AM	#890
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by ElJamoquio So what you're saying here is that there's one professional nature photographer who shoots Pentax. I'm saying AF is good enough for the most demanding professional needs. By all means, make AF as fast and accurate as possible, but I have yet to encounter a situation when it was the AF that failed and not me...

08-28-2012, 10:59 AM	#891
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Rondec Actually, nearly all of the pros in my area shoot with APS-C. When you have to expense out every new purchase, you are a lot more careful with new glass and body purchases and are less likely to jump on the up-grade band wagon. Most of the pros in my rural area are using cameras that are a generation old at the minimum -- Canon 50Ds or Nikon D300s. The reality is that clients can't tell the difference between formats for the most part. My wife shoots professionally, portraiture and weddings, with two K5s and she has never had anyone complain to her that the photos had "too much depth of field" or that they would have been better had she used a full frame camera. I understand the desire for full frame, I just think that it is something appeals more to people who shoot as a hobby and have extra money in their pockets than to professional photographers. Exactly the same as a friend of mine who has his own fine-art gallery and shoots weddings on the sides says. He is also the only pro I've met with an FF camera incidentally bought used. When his gallery burned down last year (with his camera gear) the first thing he bought was a Canon 7D. He bought a 5DIII second hand. He says no client can tell whats shot with what (I can't either. Maybe if the same image were displayed side by side megalarge). He like the FF due to the bigger finder. The 7D is the main tool.

08-28-2012, 11:23 AM	#892
atlnq9 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Albums Posts: 330	Originally posted by Pål Jensen The only professional nature photographer who specificially mention Pentax AF (SAFOX V) says it gives just as many keepers as his Canon 1-series camera. This is in print in a published book with photos of dancing Sifakas something that is much harder to shoot than weddings. Those who whine about AF are usually amateurs to make an excuse to buy a new toy. Pros manage to make AF work regardless of camera. As a nature photographer I have never encountered a situation where AF isn't fast enough. People always want better. I remember trying to track moving subjects with manual focus. I remember when I loved the Canon eos 3 which had the eye controled focus. It focused where your eye was looking in the viewfinder, well 75% of the time. I wish Canon had continued to develop that technology. As far as Pentax AF goes it isn't too bad. It works fine for my wildlife images 95% of the time even on the 645D. The only time it becomes a hindrance is in tracking AF; but, I think that is more precision/software than slow AF speed. Granted I don't use SDM lenses too much; primarily the screw driven 645 lenses and my k mount FA* 300mm 2.8 with the focus limit switch... But the tracking AF can be made up for relativly easy by bumping ISO and shooting smaller aperture. Higher ISO is better than no image. I want something very similar to the K5 (aps-c) still and they had better not change to a new battery on me. I am not likely to buy into a FF from any make for a couple more years as I have the 645D. Aps-c and the 645D make a very nice pair. FF is just pointless. When I need super telephoto I have the K5. When I want to capture all the detail I have the 645D. Perfect combo. Last edited by atlnq9; 08-28-2012 at 11:29 AM.

08-28-2012, 12:01 PM	#893
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by atlnq9 People always want better. I remember trying to track moving subjects with manual focus. I remember when I loved the Canon eos 3 which had the eye controled focus. It focused where your eye was looking in the viewfinder, well 75% of the time. I wish Canon had continued to develop that technology. As far as Pentax AF goes it isn't too bad. It works fine for my wildlife images 95% of the time even on the 645D. The only time it becomes a hindrance is in tracking AF; but, I think that is more precision/software than slow AF speed. Granted I don't use SDM lenses too much; primarily the screw driven 645 lenses and my k mount FA* 300mm 2.8 with the focus limit switch... But the tracking AF can be made up for relativly easy by bumping ISO and shooting smaller aperture. Higher ISO is better than no image. I want something very similar to the K5 (aps-c) still and they had better not change to a new battery on me. I am not likely to buy into a FF from any make for a couple more years as I have the 645D. Aps-c and the 645D make a very nice pair. FF is just pointless. When I need super telephoto I have the K5. When I want to capture all the detail I have the 645D. Perfect combo. I agree that APS + MF Digital is a perfect combo. I shoot most of my landscapes with wide angles and standard lenses; only about 5% with telephotos. So my ideal setup is 645D with 33-55 + 75mm (or the coming 28-45(?)) + an APS camera for the tele, wildlife, macro + handheld work (small kit zoom). A complete MF setup only when near my car (I own the 120 macro + the 150-300). I did the AF "test" years ago when the MZ-S came out. The general consensus among Canon shooters was that AF was useless for macro. I set up the camera with an insect on a straw moving back and forth in the wind in close to 1:1 magnification and the camera had an 80% hitrate in back and forth movements; very good. Next, after about and hour trail and error (the trial and error was to keep the sensor on the insect), I managed to get the camera to track fast moving bees in flight with the 200 macro. To me AF is of academic interest as the shortcomings are mine.

08-28-2012, 12:37 PM	#894
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Funny. I watch a pro almost every week (long story) shoot a wedding. I recall one APS-C in the past year or so. This is weddings near San Jose, CA at a cheaper facility. Right. You live in a much wealthier area than I do. Average wedding photographer in my area bills around a thousand dollars to shoot a wedding. Most will do a high school senior shoot for 150 dollars (disk included). They are scraping by. The average professional photographer takes in an income of just over 50,000 dollars a year in the United States. In rural areas, they take in far less, because people just can't afford to pay high rates for photos. It is definitely a tough field to be in. Just saying...

08-28-2012, 12:41 PM	#895
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	Originally posted by falconeye I am not sure about their sources ... but the Moderator of a large German Nikon forum made a forum announcement for Sep. 12/13 and 1300€ for the Nikon D600 FF launch. That would be below the APSC K-3/K-S price as it is currently rumored. At this price, I see Pentaxians drain out quickly If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€. Some of us here have predicted cheap FF cameras here for a long time. If we saw it, Pentax must have and I would be surprised if Pentax don't have a FF soon.

08-28-2012, 12:47 PM	#896
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Supernaut If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€. Some of us here have predicted cheap FF cameras here for a long time. If we saw it, Pentax must have and I would be surprised if Pentax don't have a FF soon. This is already the case. The K-5 Silver Special Edition with the Silver 40mm started out at 1399 euro and is now at 1249 euro and is not moving. Pentax K-5 + 40mm XS Silver Special Edition Kit - Digitale Camera's bij CameraNU.nl

08-28-2012, 12:57 PM	#897
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Supernaut If this price estimate is correct it means that Pentax will have problem selling crop cameras for more than 900-1000€. . Why? Don't you think people who want crop cameras buy crop cameras and those who want FF buy FF?

08-28-2012, 01:12 PM	#898
Supernaut Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: West Coast , Sweden Posts: 467	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Why? Don't you think people who want crop cameras buy crop cameras and those who want FF buy FF? Not to the extent that it will keep the already small market share the same or make it bigger. FF will soon be the main selling point instead of todays megapxels and high iso.

08-28-2012, 01:31 PM	#900
fikkser Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Borlänge, Sweden Posts: 373	Originally posted by Pål Jensen How do you explain that when sensors are getting better and better and the need for larger sensors is actually decreasing from an image quality point of view? The main selling point is actually price and smaller sensors and lenses are going to stay cheaper overall..... BTW Olympus have announced that they intend to make a pro 4/3 DSLR; they must think that some want smaller sensors... They must have read your posts. :-)