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10-01-2012, 06:01 AM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
The context was a quote that you used the 35mm like your old 50mm. You could use any 50mm for that role, like the 50mm f/1.8 (cheap) or the FA 50 1.4 (fast and cheaper than the 35mm) or, or, or...

Right?
No. You're mistaking an implication for an equivalence: I didn't say that I only use the 35 mm in those cases.

10-01-2012, 06:17 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Pentax has to compete with Sony as well. There is only a limited supply of FF sensors. You can only fit about 60 Ff sensors on a 300mm wafer, the same wafer will fit 160 APS-C sensors. Not every sensor on the wafer will be of high enough quality to be installed in a camera. It is not likely that Sony will be producing enough FF sensors for Pentax to get in on the action. Pentax could go to a boutique CMOS manufacturer like Leica did, but then you would end up with a camera that costs as much as the Leica M. At that point you might as well get a 645D.
Run more wafers. That is what they do to make more aps-c and aps-h and 4/3. That is also what the do when they need more ff and medium format sensors.
10-01-2012, 06:56 AM - 1 Like   #138
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One issue with sensors/wafers has been the availability of pure silicon. Up until about 3 years ago there were not enough companies producing really pure product. Over the last three years the supply of really high grade silicon has greatly increased. The purer the raw materials are the fewer imperfections you have in the wafers. Companies are producing larger wafers with fewer defects. The increased supply of pure silicon has also reduced the cost of pure silicon. The cost of producing wafers has gone down and yields have gone up.

A second issue is that FF sensors previously required the photolithography to be done in 3 stages with 3 separate masks. Currently Sony is producing full frame sensors with a single mask. This makes it much faster and significantly reduces the possibility of an error that ruins a sensor.

It will be interesting to see how the new FF CMOS 24MP sensor in the Leica performs. We will see if CMOSIS sensors can match the IQ of the Sony sensors. Canon, Sony & CMOSIS are currently producing FF CMOS sensors, with Samsung, Dalsa, Fuji, & Panasonic all have the capabilities to do so. I'm sure there are others that I don't know about. I had never heard of CMOSIS until the Leica announcement.
10-01-2012, 04:07 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
One issue with sensors/wafers has been the availability of pure silicon. Up until about 3 years ago there were not enough companies producing really pure product. Over the last three years the supply of really high grade silicon has greatly increased. The purer the raw materials are the fewer imperfections you have in the wafers. Companies are producing larger wafers with fewer defects. The increased supply of pure silicon has also reduced the cost of pure silicon. The cost of producing wafers has gone down and yields have gone up.

A second issue is that FF sensors previously required the photolithography to be done in 3 stages with 3 separate masks. Currently Sony is producing full frame sensors with a single mask. This makes it much faster and significantly reduces the possibility of an error that ruins a sensor.

It will be interesting to see how the new FF CMOS 24MP sensor in the Leica performs. We will see if CMOSIS sensors can match the IQ of the Sony sensors. Canon, Sony & CMOSIS are currently producing FF CMOS sensors, with Samsung, Dalsa, Fuji, & Panasonic all have the capabilities to do so. I'm sure there are others that I don't know about. I had never heard of CMOSIS until the Leica announcement.
I believe that the Leica sensor has functions and design licensed from Sony.

Sony bought out Toshiba's assets in late 2010 to consolidate some of the supply of pure silicon and ramp up production in a variety of areas. This freed up capacity to make FF sensors. The Sony advantage is the high-ISO capabilities which are in a league of their own. There have been many rumours that some of this is attributable to Nikon cross-licensing of certain design specs. This would go part way to explaining why only Sony and Nikon have access to Sony-supplied FF sensors at market happy prices.

10-01-2012, 08:13 PM - 1 Like   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
There have been many rumours that some of this is attributable to Nikon cross-licensing of certain design specs.
There have been rumours around that Santa is a real person.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
This would go part way to explaining why only Sony and Nikon have access to Sony-supplied FF sensors at market happy prices.
Watch that explanation crumble to nothing soon.
10-02-2012, 02:47 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I believe that the Leica sensor has functions and design licensed from Sony.

Sony bought out Toshiba's assets in late 2010 to consolidate some of the supply of pure silicon and ramp up production in a variety of areas. This freed up capacity to make FF sensors. The Sony advantage is the high-ISO capabilities which are in a league of their own. There have been many rumours that some of this is attributable to Nikon cross-licensing of certain design specs. This would go part way to explaining why only Sony and Nikon have access to Sony-supplied FF sensors at market happy prices.
What have you seen to indicate that the Leica sensor has anything to do with Sony? Panasonic and Leica have worked together in the past and people though Panasonic might start supplying sensors for Leica, but it never happened.

Neither Sony nor Toshiba produce silicon so I'm not sure how their consolidation would effect the market.

There has never been any solid evidence that there is an agreement between Nikon and Sony. Nikon claims that they helped design the 12MP used in the D3/D3s and D700, and Nikon leased space inside of the Sony fab plant, but other than that sensor there hasn't even been enough evidence to speculate on any other cross licensing agreement that I have seen. There has been no evidence of a 6 month exclusivity agreement. Sony's camera division is just frigg'n slow when it comes to getting product out the door. Their sensor division moves much faster with new products and Nikon is really the only camera manufacturer with a large enough product line to implement sensors as fast as Sony can develop them. Sony discontinued the A700 and then it took them a year to release the replacement. It's simply because Sony is frigg'n slow.

The question I have is who makes the Nikon D4 sensor? It does not appear to be a Sony sensor. When you look at the DxO performance curves for all of the known modern Sony sensors they are very similar. The D4 sensor has a very different curve.
10-02-2012, 02:50 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I believe that the Leica sensor has functions and design licensed from Sony.
Is that just speculation?

The sensor is designed and certified by CMOSIS; the sensor itself is fabricated by STMicroelectronics. Both are European firms; the press release made a big deal of an all-European sensor in the Leica M.

Regardless, the only thing that matters in the end, assuming one is potentially in the market for one of these bodies, is how it performs and it'll be awhile before we learn that.
10-05-2012, 05:58 AM   #143
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I think that FF camera from Pentax could be next year in the best case. Maybe later.
BUT it will be weeping and gritting of teeth...
The body wlll be ~ USD3000, and each new high-end zoom with HD coating, all weather resist and SR per USD1500-2000-3000.
Maybe new version of old FA LIMITED with twice price....

It could be system strictly between MF and APS-C. Rather exepensive. What do you think?

10-05-2012, 05:59 AM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that FF camera from Pentax will be next year in the best case. Maybe later.
BUT it will be weeping and gritting of teeth...
The body wlll be ~ USD3000, and each new high-end zoom with HD coating, all weather resist and SR per USD1500-2000-3000.
Maybe new version of old FA LIMITED with twice price....

It could be system strictly between MF and APS-C. Rather exepensive. What do you think?
As long as its K-mount.
10-05-2012, 07:06 AM   #145
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I can see another realization of FF - new GXR2 body and FF unit with 40/2 or 35/2 or 50/1.4 lens. Or units.
It's unusual, but interesting move...IMO

Last edited by ogl; 10-05-2012 at 07:34 AM.
10-08-2012, 04:38 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
you still aren't convinced there are Pentax users out there who want an FF body? really? everybody's happy using their FF Pentax glass with a crop? ok well, nevermind us and the rest of the surviving DSLR industry. what else can i say...

There might be lots of I want FF post around here but they are only from a handful of posters that repeat the same arguments over and over. It seems quite clear to me that Pentax tries to make the most of the APS format and plan to cater to those who want something bigger with the 645 system.
10-08-2012, 04:48 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It seems quite clear to me that Pentax tries to make the most of the APS format and plan to cater to those who want something bigger with the 645 system.
If that's the case, I think Pentax is quite wrong in their thinking. 645 is much more specialized AND much more expensive than FF. The pool of potential FF shooters is much greater than that of MF.
10-08-2012, 04:50 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
There might be lots of I want FF post around here but they are only from a handful of posters that repeat the same arguments over and over. It seems quite clear to me that Pentax tries to make the most of the APS format and plan to cater to those who want something bigger with the 645 system.
I don't have any problem with the 645D system and am glad that Pentax got it released after the start stop and restart on the development. However, A $15 K plus system is seriously out of reach of many. There isn't anything wrong with pushing the envelop on the aps-c (1.53x) bodies. Likewise, I don't see a problem with them releasing a ff body given it would be a k-mount system. Most auto makers sponsor race teams in various motor sports. Lastly, there have been a quite a few members that have bought other brands of ff bodies over the past couple of years and has increased in more than a linear fashion.
10-08-2012, 04:59 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
There might be lots of I want FF post around here but they are only from a handful of posters that repeat the same arguments over and over. It seems quite clear to me that Pentax tries to make the most of the APS format and plan to cater to those who want something bigger with the 645 system.
If its so clear why doesn't Pentax stand firm as you say, and tell their customer base "there is no FF coming" instead of repeated statements of "we're looking into it"?

I suppose it's just a handful of posters here that will buy the thousands of D600s and 6Ds as well..
10-08-2012, 09:09 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that FF camera from Pentax could be next year in the best case. Maybe later.
BUT it will be weeping and gritting of teeth...
The body wlll be ~ USD3000, and each new high-end zoom with HD coating, all weather resist and SR per USD1500-2000-3000.
Maybe new version of old FA LIMITED with twice price....

It could be system strictly between MF and APS-C. Rather exepensive. What do you think?
I paid AUD$2500 for my ist-D and another $300 for the grip that I ending up not using. $3000 wouldn't stop me if everything else stacked up. I have enough FF capable lenses to get by until I can afford newer versions. I can live without a FF camera and don't see any reason to go through the pain of swapping systems to get one, but if Pentax made one then I would probably buy it.
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