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10-09-2012, 06:13 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I think that FF camera from Pentax could be next year in the best case. Maybe later.
BUT it will be weeping and gritting of teeth...
The body wlll be ~ USD3000, and each new high-end zoom with HD coating, all weather resist and SR per USD1500-2000-3000.
Maybe new version of old FA LIMITED with twice price....

It could be system strictly between MF and APS-C. Rather exepensive. What do you think?
Pentax had the opportunity to strike first with an economical FF with K-5 quality body. Instead, Nikon hit with the 600 and 800, Canon with the 6d and Sony with their stuff. All of them are between $2100 to $3000. Before that was the D700. A lot of this getting behind had to do with the battling of the first Hoya take over, the Hoya takeover, and the sale to Ricoh. All that said, I am glad Pentax and the K-mount are still around.

10-09-2012, 08:50 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Pentax had the opportunity to strike first with an economical FF with K-5 quality body. Instead, Nikon hit with the 600 and 800, Canon with the 6d and Sony with their stuff. All of them are between $2100 to $3000. Before that was the D700. A lot of this getting behind had to do with the battling of the first Hoya take over, the Hoya takeover, and the sale to Ricoh. All that said, I am glad Pentax and the K-mount are still around.
Pure wishful thinking and fantasy! How in the world can Pentax hope to come up with an economical FF camera when it hasn't even rolled out a a non-working dummy, a prototype proof of concept model much less a real working production model that the average Joe can buy in the shops or online? Pentax may historically have rolled out affordable APS-C cameras but never that much cheaper than offerings from other brands.

Nikon and Canon have produced many iterations of FF cameras for a long time. Canon released their first FF camera way back in 2005 with the EOS 5D, that's eons as far as digital technology is concerned. Over that time the two companies have sold enough FF cameras to be able to bring down the FF price point. Now with their new crop of lower priced FF cameras, they have effectively fractured the market and bridged the gap between APS-C and FF to a point that there is now way in hell Pentax or other brands can hope to claim a stake in the affordable FF segment.

Pentax is and has always been behind the curve in digital photography. The pre-Hoya Pentax management planted the seeds of it's current predicament by opting to bank on APS-C only image circle lenses with the DA range of lenses. Perhaps as a late entrant in digital photography it could never have been able to compete with making cameras with bigger sensors, and in the context of being on the brink of financial collapse and a user base who can't/won't spend too much, it made perfectly good sense to stick with a 6 megapixel APS-C CCD sensor as the base for its bland DSLRs. While Nikon and Canon sold loads of cameras with their D70/D50/D40 and EOS300/350 range of cameras, our own *ist cameras were simply too late to market, too expensive, not competitive feature wise and too hard to find. So while later Pentax cameras did achieve good sales, good reputation, closed the gap with APS-C offerings from other brands, and increased the user base, it was and still is a minnow in the wider context.

Bottomline is no FF proof of concept, much less a commercially available model available for sale means that the very idea of an affordable FF camera is nothing but wishful thinking. What opportunity to strike first? Developing a FF camera isn't simply a case of scaling up an APS-C camera and the lack of suitable lenses is a major obstacle. The FA lenses are already long in the tooth and while they can deliver good image quality, the benchmark of AF speed is always there. Pentax can't bridge the limitation of slow focusing in relation to the competition unless there's a complete revamp of the lens range. And what about the hopelessly outdated flash system? There just aren't enough Pentax/Ricoh development engineers to ever match what Canikon have available. How can Pentax have any hope in hell to play catch-up much less achieve close to what Canon and Nikon have currently on offer?

If one want to point to the 645D to show Pentax's capability to produce a large sensor camera, remember the 645D production run was initially targeted at no more than 1,000 units. Even if production was ramped up to 2,000 units, the 645D is a mere sideshow in the bigger scheme of things. With a noticeable lack of new lenses, especially on the wide end, it is hard for the 645D to be a contender particularly when the way cheaper Nikon D800 delivers stunning resolution and has a much wider range of lenses that can be used. Pentax may still be able to deliver a decent APS-C in the new K-5 II/K-5 IIs but that's a market segment that has limited growth prospects. Affordable FF cameras is the photographic sweet spot at the moment, not APS-C anymore...

Last edited by creampuff; 10-09-2012 at 09:08 AM.
10-09-2012, 08:58 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
remember the 645D production run was initially targeted at no more than 1,000 units
Are you sure about this? The only official figure that I know of is the initial production volume, of 500 units per month.
Not that it changes anything.
10-09-2012, 09:25 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Canon released their first FF camera way back in 2005 with the EOS 5D, that's eons as far as digital technology is concerned. ment engineers to ever match what Canikon have available. How can Pentax have any hope in hell to play catch-up much less achieve close to what Canon and Nikon have currently on offer?
Small correction.


1. Canon EOS-1Ds
Announced: Sep 24, 2002
11.0 megapixels Full frame sensor

2. Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II
Announced: Sep 21, 2004
16.6 megapixels Full frame sensor

It's already 10 years of Canon digital FF cameras era...

10-09-2012, 10:45 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Small correction.


1. Canon EOS-1Ds
Announced: Sep 24, 2002
11.0 megapixels Full frame sensor

2. Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II
Announced: Sep 21, 2004
16.6 megapixels Full frame sensor

It's already 10 years of Canon digital FF cameras era...
OK I didn't go back enough, thanks for the correction. Point is, Pentax is so far behind that it will only be a matter of time before what little market share it has in APS-C will be whittled away by compact and mirrorless cameras and people migrating to FF. All things being equal, people prefer a bigger viewfinder or a bigger display and with Canon and Nikon outselling Pentax even with APS-C cameras, it will be a longshot for Pentax to come up with a FF camera that will satisfy Pentax users much less attract newcomers to buy into Pentax. If and when Pentax actually comes up with a FF camera, it will a given that Pentax users will complain it will never be as good features wise as a Canikon FF, it will be too big, it will be too heavy, it will not be able to focus fast or accurately enough, the flash system is a joke, there aren't enough FF lenses, they can't use their long obsolete and cherished legacy lenses, and most importantly it won't be cheap enough.

Last edited by creampuff; 10-09-2012 at 10:51 AM.
10-09-2012, 11:41 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Affordable FF cameras is the photographic sweet spot at the moment, not APS-C anymore...
Where are the affordable FF cameras? They are no more affordable today then they were three years ago. Just more cheaply made at a higher price. Theres no way more than one in ten going into a shop to buy an DSLR are coming out with a DSLR costing more than $2000. In fact, it is closer to one in twenty. Sweet spot?

BTW Have you seen the samples form the K-5IIs? The quality seem to be beyond any reasonable sweetspot. You can make razor sharp metre sized prints with this camera.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 10-09-2012 at 12:09 PM.
10-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
OK I didn't go back enough, thanks for the correction. Point is, Pentax is so far behind that it will only be a matter of time before what little market share it has in APS-C will be whittled away by compact and mirrorless cameras and people migrating to FF.
Where is the data for this? Theres no FF migration. Nor is there any loss of sales to mirrorless. APS DSLR sales are increasing with no sign of dropping. Canon recently reported record sales, seven million I think, mainly due to the rebels and the 7D; both incidentally even smaller than APS technically.
The digital camera market continue to diversify but the future is particularly bright for smaller sensor cameras.
10-09-2012, 11:58 AM   #158
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Affordable FF cameras is the photographic sweet spot at the moment, not APS-C anymore...
What exactly is "affordable" about FF? Sony just released a $3000 P&S.

10-09-2012, 12:01 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Where is the data for this? Theres no FF migration. Nor is there any loss of sales to mirrorless. APS DSLR sales are increasing with no sign of dropping. Canon recently reported record sales, seven million I think, mainly due to the rebels and the 7D; both incidentally even smaller than APS technically.
The digital camera market continue to diversify but the future is particularly bright for smaller sensor cameras.
This data was before the OM-D, Fuji X, NEX 6&7, GH3, D600, 6D.....you can continue to pretend the landscape is the same as those numbers, but it's simply not, the game has changed. all these new cameras directly target APS-C DSLRs.

Last edited by illdefined; 10-09-2012 at 12:09 PM.
10-09-2012, 12:06 PM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
This data was before the OM-D, Fuji X, NEX 6&7, GH3, D600, 6D.....you can continue to pretend the landscape is the same as those numbers, but it's simply not, the game has changed. all these new cameras directly target APS-C DSLRs.
And why should the landscape change? This is about diversification not replacement. Besides, the connection made between sensor size and camera type is meaningless; people who want big sensors will want them regardless of what camera type they prefer. Research have shown that mirrorless is bought in addition to DSLR; not as replacements. FF DSLR has been around for a decade and FF sesnor are still as costly as they were three years ago.
BTW The numbers are from 2012 but we heard exactly the same argument five years ago. They weren't true back then or last year for that matter. Nor were the imminent release of cheap FF cameras true either; they cost the same if not more than three years ago.
10-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Where are the affordable FF cameras? They are no more affordable today then they were three years ago. Just more cheaply made at a higher price. Theres no way more than one in ten going into a shop to buy an DSLR are coming out with a DSLR costing more than $2000. In fact, it is closer to one in twenty. Sweet spot?
Maybe where you're located people don't buy expensive cameras what with the very high sales tax and all. Where I am, the camera shops are doing a roaring trade selling FF cameras that they frequently encounter low stocks. We get plenty of tourists and locals buying cameras and many Nikon and Canon enthusiasts who haven't already got FF are lusting and salivating at the D800/D600 and 5D Mk III/6D. Heck even the second hand market for the discontinued FF models is brisk because they're cheap and deliver better image quality compared to cropped sensor DSLRs.

Trust me, the average working bloke in Asia ain't broke or mortgaged to their eyeballs in debt, so what's a US$2000 camera... pittance in relation to their savings and earning capacity. Teenagers and young working adults carrying FF cameras and expensive Leicas are pretty common. Basically in many big cities in Asia people don't need to bat an eyelid or count their pennies to buy a camera... so what's the big deal? No need for hard data... it's pretty obvious where I am. We got electronic shops here which are open 24 hours a day throughout the year and they are doing extremely well selling to transiting tourists.

Last edited by creampuff; 10-09-2012 at 12:24 PM.
10-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Pure wishful thinking and fantasy! How in the world can Pentax hope to come up with an economical FF camera when it hasn't even rolled out a a non-working dummy, a prototype proof of concept model much less a real working production model that the average Joe can buy in the shops or online? Pentax may historically have rolled out affordable APS-C cameras but never that much cheaper than offerings from other brands.

. . . .
I guess you didn't see the part where I said they had the opportunity and couldn't take advantage of it. I wasn't talking about the future at all but the opportunity that they had. The *istD came out of a bungled attempt.
10-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #163
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I find the current "DX month" series by Thom Hogan very interesting reading, especially with regards to the "FF is needed as an upgrade path" claims. It seems that Nikon DX users aren't rushing to "upgrade" to the D600. Link: DX Month, Week 1 at bythom.com

My take on this is that "full-frame" isn't anymore of an upgrade path from APS-C than medium-format was from 135 format in the film days. It's a different format altogether.
10-09-2012, 12:19 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
I find the current "DX month" series by Thom Hogan very interesting reading, especially with regards to the "FF is needed as an upgrade path" claims. It seems that Nikon DX users are rushing to "upgrade" to the D600. Link: DX Month, Week 1 at bythom.com

My take on this is that "full-frame" isn't anymore of an upgrade path from APS-C than medium-format was from 135 format in the film days. It's a different format altogether.
The big difference is that aps-c dSLR and ff dSLR share the same mount.
10-09-2012, 12:23 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The big difference is that aps-c dSLR and ff dSLR share the same mount.
Agree, also, the big jump in price between Full Frame and Medium Format.
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