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10-10-2012, 08:08 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Just for clarification, those were body only prices for the U.S.A. in my example. Nikon seems to have prices fixed across most dealers including BestBuy, BH and Ador.
Thanks. Resale price maintenance isn't legal here but no doubt arms are twisted in other ways. I'm quoting prices from my dealer, SRS Microsystems, who are probably the lead Pentax dealer in the UK though they carry Nikon, Olympus, etc.

10-10-2012, 08:34 AM   #182
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QuoteQuote:
An example:

K5IIs + DA*16-50mm = 1748 GBP
D600 + 16-85mm VR = 2049 GBP

That's a difference of about 17 per cent extra to jump not only to a larger format but to an entirely new generation of camera.
What kind of comparison is that? APS-C f2.8 lens + APS-C camera vs APS-C f3.5-5.6 lens + full frame camera?
10-10-2012, 08:56 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopey Quote
What kind of comparison is that? APS-C f2.8 lens + APS-C camera vs APS-C f3.5-5.6 lens + full frame camera?
It is based on the law of equivalency which is totally bogus as no one buy a FF camera in order to make ut eqiuvalent to a APS camera.
10-10-2012, 09:05 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopey Quote
What kind of comparison is that? APS-C f2.8 lens + APS-C camera vs APS-C f3.5-5.6 lens + full frame camera?
Lol, folks can twist and turn around comparisons until blue in the face but the basic parameter doesn't really change, and certainly not when in a B&M store where a clever salesman is upselling you. At currently quoted prices, it's game over here, where I live, for high-end APS-C except when reasons other than price, IQ and a brand's wider ecosystem come into play (which are pretty big reasons to begin with actually). Extreme WR, weight and compactness, for example, or a love of the limited prime lenses. Very valid reasons to go with the Pentax, provided you're very careful with the FA limited lenses and the DA* lenses which are so highly priced here that if you start down that road that you will pay more for your Pentax APS-C system than you will for your Canonikon FF one. In that scenario, yes, Pentax would be an excellent choice. Going long for wildlife would be another reason, though here Canonikon probably offer better long lens catalogues so most folks, I would guess, would not choose a Pentax system.

So one can see how the window is closing. For a buyer who's not locked in and is brand-agnostic, it's game over. Don't forget that in order to take advantage of the removal of the AA filter in a K5IIs you will need to use very good lenses. There is no point in buying one and sticking the 18-55mm kit lens on the front. In any case, I'm not really thinking here only of the K5II series, an interim move anyway. I'm thinking of how on earth Pentax are going to persuade folks to buy a new APS-C flagship camera next year if it is priced anywhere near the 1100 GBP or so at which the K5 first debuted, if I recall. Say they lower the price to keep clear enough of the D600 level. All of that, at least one hundred GBP + per unit and possibly far more, represents lost revenue to Pentax. They're a business, profit and loss. Think about it.


Last edited by mecrox; 10-10-2012 at 01:06 PM.
10-10-2012, 09:15 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by hopey Quote
What kind of comparison is that? APS-C f2.8 lens + APS-C camera vs APS-C f3.5-5.6 lens + full frame camera?
The OP probably mixed up with the new 24-85/3.5-4.5 kit lens for the D600? I'd like to see a test of that lens before one starts to make any claims about equivalence to APS-C f/2.8 zooms, though.
10-10-2012, 09:29 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The OP probably mixed up with the new 24-85/3.5-4.5 kit lens for the D600? I'd like to see a test of that lens before one starts to make any claims about equivalence to APS-C f/2.8 zooms, though.
Sorry, my bad, I meant the Nikon 24-85mm F3.5-4.5G ED VR AF-S offered here with the D600. However, for the majority of buyers I would guess that tests won't come into it. If the lens is presented as good enough in a kit combo, which it likely will be, they will go for it.

I've edited the original post and thank you for pointing out my error. However, the price difference is only 30 GBP (16-85mm DX vs 24-85mm FX) so nothing really changes.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-10-2012 at 09:38 AM.
10-10-2012, 12:10 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The data show that mirrorless is not replacing DSLR's whose sales continue to increase.
What do you think those users would have bought if mirrorless cameras didn't exist? Do you think they would have purchased P&Ss or an SLR?

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Mirrorless is replacing P&S cameras thats in decline.
Low end P&S are replaced by phones. "Bridge" P&S cameras and low end SLRs are being replaced by MILCs.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
As Pentax themselves pointed out recently in an interview mirrorless cameras are typically bough in addition to a DSLR.
That only proves how clueless they are about the market.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The statistics are misleading because a camera group (mirrorless) is included in a segment (DSLR) where they were not present previously. By the same method you could have shown that mobile phone cameras (or anything) are replacing DSLR's.
That is because you need to apply some common sense to the analysis. People that want a portable photo capturing device will find their needs fulfilled by phones better than by P&S cameras. People that want more controls and better IQ would go to SLRs or MILCs. It's not like there was a segment of market that was not exploited at all and MILCs are taking that void. They are taking market from both high end P&S and low end DSLRs.
10-10-2012, 12:54 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote


That is because you need to apply some common sense to the analysis. People that want a portable photo capturing device will find their needs fulfilled by phones better than by P&S cameras. People that want more controls and better IQ would go to SLRs or MILCs. It's not like there was a segment of market that was not exploited at all and MILCs are taking that void. They are taking market from both high end P&S and low end DSLRs.
+1
I think there a lot of people like me too. I started out with a decent DSLR, I bought a ton of lenses. After shooting for a few years, I realized that I don't use most of my lenses, and my RX100, which fits into my pocket, can take care of 75% of my shots. So there is now no need to for me to carry around an SLR everywhere I go, it only comes out for specialty shots.
Hell, I could totally sell my K-5, get a NEX 5N and never look back. The only reason I haven't is because I love my Macro w/macro ring flash setup.

10-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
That must be one amazing kit lens!

(USA pricing (B&H): D600 $2097, D800 $2999).
Well, the cheap new Nikon kit lens costs $850 over here, so Pål is very close.
10-10-2012, 01:11 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Sorry, my bad, I meant the Nikon 24-85mm F3.5-4.5G ED VR AF-S offered here with the D600. However, for the majority of buyers I would guess that tests won't come into it. If the lens is presented as good enough in a kit combo, which it likely will be, they will go for it.
But if you're comparing what most people will buy, you should compare to K-5+18-55 WR...
10-10-2012, 01:23 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Well, the cheap new Nikon kit lens costs $850 over here, so Pål is very close.
I obviously have no idea what a kit lens is these days (crawls back under his rock).
10-10-2012, 02:05 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
I obviously have no idea what a kit lens is these days (crawls back under his rock).
The price of the kit lens is one of the things that makes FF very different from APS-C. I see that bhphotovideo offers the D600 in kit for 500$ more than just the body right now, but you can get a complete D3100 kit for less than that...
10-10-2012, 02:09 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
But if you're comparing what most people will buy, you should compare to K-5+18-55 WR...
Maybe but I'm not at all sure. The 18-55mm wouldn't make sense on the K5IIs and it probably won't make sense on a new flagship with a 24 mp sensor especially if the sensor is tweaked. I'd guess that Pentax would be happier with at least the 18-135mm on that which also has a proper lens motor unlike the 18-55mm. What worked a couple of years ago doesn't mean it will work now on the high-end cameras (the original K5 and the K30 are not included, of course). I think the game has changed in lots of ways over the past few months. Is it acceptable now in this segment to offer a 1500+ buck camera with a lens which doesn't even had a ring motor? Resting on laurels instead of modernizing the core lens line is another thing which is coming back to bite Pentax now the squeeze is on. Of course I could be massively mistaken.. That's part of the fun for us, surely. In many ways we ought to start betting bottles of champagne on a lot of this sutff.
10-10-2012, 02:12 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Is it acceptable now to offer a 1500+ buck camera with a lens which doesn't even had a ring motor?
No. In fact noisy autofocus is a complaint in ever more reviews of Pentax cameras. Even the plastic DA-L version of the 18-55 should have a built-in motor these days.
10-10-2012, 02:36 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
They are taking market from both high end P&S and low end DSLRs.
Again, where are the data for this? According to sales figures entry level DSLR are on the increase whereas P&S are on the decrease. Theres no sign that mirrorless is stealing from entry level DSLR. Canon have recorded record sales, 7 million, of DSLR's. Over 75% is entry level.
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