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09-26-2012, 08:59 AM   #46
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The Pentax strategy was, before Hoya, to differentiate in the marketplace. I know this has been said before, but:

Super stripped down FF DSLR focusing on incredible image quality with little/no bells and whistles. A true imaging machine that takes incredible STILLS (forget video- I know that's sacrilege, but everybody can shoot decent video of an event with their smart phone of choice). A camera that competes with a Leica but is single lens reflex in design, that puts all the emphasis into the still image quality, that has a slightly retro look, that is a joy to use in terms of ergonomics, that supports all the legacy glass (no crippled K mount, I know that isn't in their interests, but thought I'd throw that in there), that gets rid of tons of on-board image processing, generating the cleanest, high quality raw output it can. Add better focus assist for manual glass users. Emphasis on great image making, easy workflow as well (dual card slots, usb 3.0, etc).

Anyways, I know Pentax is a Japanese company and their competition is all about the bells and whistles, but one can dream...

09-26-2012, 09:42 AM   #47
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I'm afraid that would compete with Leica also in price
09-26-2012, 10:39 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm afraid that would compete with Leica also in price
And if you're willing to pay $7000 for a camera you're going to go with the Leica in the first place, unless you want a 645D.
09-26-2012, 05:03 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by phylej Quote
Hi everyone,

I'm new here, but enjoying the discussions.

I was wondering if older FF lenses provide enough FOV to work with shake reduction on a FF sensor. I recall reading an interview where the Pentax rep said that DA lenses could somewhat cover FF sensors because the APS-C sensors needed to move around when SR is on. In that case, perhaps legacy glass may not work so well with a FF that has SR?
Yes. Sony has had their SSS on FF cameras for years. The talk about APS-C lenses' image circle is nonsense. The image circle of such lenses isn't bigger than necessary because of any SR "design considerations," it is bigger because of the cobbed together nature of APS-C dSLRs, i.e., essentially a FF camera mount and register distance being used with a sensor less than half the size. Even camera makers that don't have IBIS have an image circle far bigger than necessary for APS-C, for the same reason.

09-26-2012, 05:13 PM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caat Quote
Pentax needs a full range of a DSLRs first before it diverts too many resources to a FF camera.

Actually what it needs is a USP that sets it apart from Canon, Nikon and Sony. Pentax has been going for far to many quick wins like the K-01 which then fall flat because consumers don't care about potential they need the actual product to be good. Mirrorless full size K mount could work but it needed to be launched high-end as a kind of tech-demo: interchangeable EVF, high specification camera, more professional design, cutting edge CDAF and so on. Pentax have lacked the money to do all of this. Ricoh will hopefully change this but a me-too FF camera is not the answer. Nikon and Canon will most likely already be in the compact sub-$2000 FF camera market by the time Pentax launches. Pentax needs to turn up early - or at least on time - for once. They're playing short-stacked in a vicious game of poker and at some point they're going to have to go all-in.
A "full range of dSLRs" includes a FF dSLR. Without it, Pentax isn't going to grow any market share, and will continue to lose what's left of what they had. They do need to go "all in" - with a FF dSLR!
09-26-2012, 05:15 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Greyser Quote
I would say that designing regular FF DSLR for 2014 year appearance, regardless of what many of us do like or dislike to admit, would be a suicide for Pentax.
Maybe the timing would be suicide (i.e., too long), but not introducing a FF dSLR is what will be suicide for Pentax.
09-26-2012, 05:21 PM   #52
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They need FF...and FF lenses...and a competitve AF system...and an updated flash system...and to be in b&m stores...and to offer longer than a 1 year warranty...and so on

Geez, that 5% marketshare is starting to make sense
09-26-2012, 05:25 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by noVICE Quote
I think many of us are forgetting one side to the production of a FF camera and that is the competition. Pentoh has well behind the pace with FF and to catch up to where the competitors are NOW is going to take time. The problem is that "in time" the competitors will have further developed their systems and so what Pentoh need to do is create a FF that will not only go toe-to-toe with Canikon, but will actually draw interest (and hopefully users) from their competition. There is little point having a flagship camera (excluding MF for a moment here) that is going to give Pentax a bad image in the market place. I think that patience is what we need right now.

Personally I want Pentoh to still pump a ton of R'n'D into APS-C, because that is where most of us will get the benefits.
So, by your logic they should just fold up their tents. "The competition" has been just as "ahead" in making APS-C dSLRs for even longer.

QuoteOriginally posted by Katier Quote
I agree that the concentration needs to be in APS-C. I like the K-01 in principle and with an EVF would provide a great alternative to a entry level DSLR. More compact than the competition, probably better feature set, takes DSLR lenses.. but NEEDS an add-on EVF (and better AF).

K-30 and K-5 lines are clearly strong strategies and strong 'shooter' cameras which is what Pentax is ( and IMO their USP should be) about. All weather, compact, high quality, dependable stills cameras.

FF is needed in order to be 'in with the Jonese' but it should share as much tech with the 645 and APS-C lines as possible such that it is competitive with the competition but doesn't drain too much on R&D for the important APS-C and 645 lines.
FF is more important than either at this stage; the lack of FF is what is eroding what little remains of the Pentax user base. APS-C is just "preaching to the choir," and they probably aren't even making money on the 645 given the drop-off in sales they allude to in Photokina interviews.

QuoteOriginally posted by asw66 Quote
While I certainly agree with your comments about Pentax's need to stay timely with respect to their big competitors, I'd say that a "me too" sub 2K FF body would be just the ticket. A K5 is arguably a "me too" D7000, is it not?
Amazing the blind spot that exists in this respect.

09-26-2012, 05:29 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
If Pentax needed lenses with a large image circle
to cover full frame in-body shake reduction,
they could tap in to the 645 line (current and legacy).
For the __th time, lenses will not need a bigger image circle to cover shake reduction. Sony has IBIS on FF cameras for years.

MmmK?!
09-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by virgilr Quote
A camera that competes with a Leica but is single lens reflex in design
I like it! The Pentax Seppuku!!!

Quick history:

1. Rangefinders rule the world
2. This new SLR concept that offers TTL comes around, Asahi innovates and refines its design
3. Rangefinders drop like flies, SLRs are taking over the market. Leica becomes a niche company. Asahi Pentax is the leader in SLR market.
4. Time passes and Pentax passes from Asahi to Hoya to Ricoh ending as the smallest player in DSLR market

2012!!! New plan to take over the world: - make an SLR to compete with Leica!
09-26-2012, 10:10 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
The image circle of such lenses isn't bigger than necessary because of any SR "design considerations," it is bigger because of the cobbed together nature of APS-C dSLRs
Exactly. It is only now with the Fuji X mount that we finally see how an APS-C sensor can be exploited in terms of building a system around it. Every other APS-C system has been a compromise of some sort or has not been developed in promising ways yet.

QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
FF is more important than either at this stage
+1

I am not particularly feeling a need for FF, but the recent releases show that you can get FF sensors in cameras that are not a lot more expensive than APS-C ones. Following this trend, in a few years we should be seeing more affordable FF systems in a smaller form factor as well. The APS-C format will end up the odd one. Even Fuji may have to reconsider their strategy around the X mount and it looks like they are already doing it. At least, they seem to react fast to the market.

With Ricoh not communicating anything, it is hard to know if they are even looking in the right direction. It's not only a question of FF for them, but also a question of whether to stick with DSLRs and the K mount.
09-26-2012, 10:10 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote

2012!!! New plan to take over the world: - make an SLR to compete with Leica!
If that means a monochrome version of the K-3 like the Leica M Monochrome then I am all for it.
09-27-2012, 01:19 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by 24X36NOW Quote
A "full range of dSLRs" includes a FF dSLR. Without it, Pentax isn't going to grow any market share
I'm afraid (not literally) that's exactly what they'll do; their plan to double the market share doesn't include a "FF". Which doesn't mean they wouldn't/shouldn't launch one.
I believe noVICE has a point; we already saw what happens if one comes up with the wrong FF - yes, I'm talking about Sony. And it will be pure madness not to continue developing APS-C, that's where the money comes from.

About the need of new lenses, I'd rather say the image quality will be the issue, more so than the SR.

Last edited by Kunzite; 09-27-2012 at 01:25 AM.
09-27-2012, 01:31 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm afraid (not literally) that's exactly what they'll do; their plan to double the market share doesn't include a "FF". Which doesn't mean they wouldn't/shouldn't launch one.
I believe noVICE has a point; we already saw what happens if one comes up with the wrong FF - yes, I'm talking about Sony. And it will be pure madness not to continue developing APS-C, that's where the money comes from.
If anything, Sony's ugly a99 demonstrates that FF isn't necessarily about DSLRs any more. I personally think EVFs are still way behind OVFs at this time, but many do not share my opinion and already prefer EVFs because of their advantages. I wonder how fast EVFs will evolve? Maybe OVFs will be something only nostalgics care about in just a couple of years? If so, it may already be too late to develop a full frame K-mount DSLR, and large sensor cameras with new short-flange mounts may be the right way to go for those planning on entering the market now. Thinking beyond that, at some time the gorgeous viewfinder of the 645D will not be worth its weight in glass, and even cameras with larger-than-35mm sensors will have EVFs as well. And then there's the trend of fusion of video and stills... I'm only sure of one thing, and that's that the camera market will evolve even faster in the next 10 years than it did in the previous 10!
09-27-2012, 01:38 AM   #60
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Don't underestimate the power of being able to see!
But you're right, EVFs can have many advantages. They can show you a heavily processed image (and you'll work hard trying to make the final result match that, instead of what you're photographing - people calls that WYSIWYG). They can distract you with many useful flashy things. They can lower the battery life. They can even play Google ads, which I believe will be the next revolutionary step after the Android cameras; and Facebook integration, because one can't miss an important update while he's shooting
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