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09-28-2012, 01:29 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
not sure how the K10, K20, K7 and K5 were exempt from being "me too" either...
If you think they were "me too", you can basically write off all APS-C and FF DSLRs as "me too". The mirrorless offerings of Canon and Nikon are kinda "meh", so that leaves Pentax as better than the big 2 with the obvious "not me too" cameras Q and 645D

09-28-2012, 01:35 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
... mirrorless is the fastest growing segment in cameras right now.
The fastest growing segment in cameras right now isn't mirrorless at all...
Unless mirrorless people are particularly shy about posting their photos on flickr.

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09-28-2012, 01:39 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
If you think they were "me too", you can basically write off all APS-C and FF DSLRs as "me too". The mirrorless offerings of Canon and Nikon are kinda "meh", so that leaves Pentax as better than the big 2 with the obvious "not me too" cameras Q and 645D
pretty much. quite objectively though, the D7000 isn't too much different from the K5...

what was distinctive for me personally about Pentax were the Limited lenses. but now m4/3 has a plethora of small, fast primes on even smaller (and now weathersealed) cameras.
09-28-2012, 01:45 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The fastest growing segment in cameras right now isn't mirrorless at all...
Unless mirrorless people are particularly shy about posting their photos on flickr.


Hey what do you know...look what happens when you go beyond Apple, Canon and Nikon....(Kodak??)



.

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09-28-2012, 02:03 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
quite objectively though, the D7000 isn't too much different from the K5...
IMHO it's more "me too" with its added bulk and more mainstream design, but YMMV of course.

QuoteQuote:
what was distinctive for me personally about Pentax were the Limited lenses. but now m4/3 has a plethora of small, fast primes on even smaller (and now weathersealed) cameras.
Which brings up something I wanted to ask the FF-desiring part of the community, and since this thread has "full-frame" in its subject, I might as well ask it here:

Your point about the lenses making the m4/3 system desirable is very good, because different camera bodies are really just different tools with different compromises of IQ and ergonomics in order to bring the best out of lenses.

So I wonder - which lenses make you (i.e. those who badly want a FF body) want FF?

I've looked a lot at wide angle lenses with a colleague who is considering the D800, and come to the conclusion that the main reason for owning a D800 would be to use it with Nikon's terrific f/2.8 zooms.

There are a lot of great Nikkor primes too, but some of them are rather old designs which presumably aren't really that fantastic with digital FF. And if you're not into razor thin DoF fetichism, the narrower DoF of fast prime lenses on FF often just cancels the high ISO advantage. For instance, when using M-50/1.7 on my LX for available light photography indoors, I rarely used it at wider apertures than 2.8, simply because you almost never want that thin DoF. Now I use my DA35 Macro Ltd for the same kind of photography and I more often stop it down to f/4 than use it wide open at f/2.8, which means that I wouldn't really gain anything by using a full format camera with a fast 50.... IMHO there are really only two prime lenses missing in the Pentax lineup to make it almost perfect: A super wide prime (10mm?) and a fast moderate WA, e.g. 24mm f/2. Some also crave a 135mm f/2-f/2.8, but the latter is to a large extent covered by the 50-135 zoom.

But back to the Nikkor lenses: For me the D800 would only make real sense with some of those great zooms. I won't complain about the high prices, the lenses come first, and if you can't really afford a D800 if you have to use it with cheap lenses. But here's my point: The 24-70/2.8 Nikkor weighs 900 grams, the marvellous 14-24 1000 grams! So you end up with a very bulky system after all, and the OM-D (if you can stand the EVF) with its nice primes - or the K-5 (II (s)) with the limiteds suddenly looks very attractive after all.
09-28-2012, 02:24 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
not sure how the K10, K20, K7 and K5 were exempt from being "me too" either...

optimism aside, why do you think Pentax have a particularly 'good' chance? just curious
K10D - affordable weather sealing (no competition back then, unless you would pay much more), well specified - it took the world by surprise. When it was launched, nothing similar existed - so how can this be a "me too" camera? Too bad Hoya happened, and they lost momentum.
K-7 - while it didn't had the best sensor around, next Photokina the Nikon D7000 was surprisingly similar in specs (and, as a consequence, with the K-5). Who's the "me too"?

And you're comparing those with launching a "full frame" just because the competition launched 3 "full frame" cameras?

It's just simple logic:
- they survived and made quite nice products without even trying (i.e. under Hoya)
- now that they're trying, they can do only better.
09-28-2012, 02:34 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Which brings up something I wanted to ask the FF-desiring part of the community, and since this thread has "full-frame" in its subject, I might as well ask it here:

Your point about the lenses making the m4/3 system desirable is very good, because different camera bodies are really just different tools with different compromises of IQ and ergonomics in order to bring the best out of lenses.

So I wonder - which lenses make you (i.e. those who badly want a FF body) want FF?

I've looked a lot at wide angle lenses with a colleague who is considering the D800, and come to the conclusion that the main reason for owning a D800 would be to use it with Nikon's terrific f/2.8 zooms.

There are a lot of great Nikkor primes too, but some of them are rather old designs which presumably aren't really that fantastic with digital FF. And if you're not into razor thin DoF fetichism, the narrower DoF of fast prime lenses on FF often just cancels the high ISO advantage. For instance, when using M-50/1.7 on my LX for available light photography indoors, I rarely used it at wider apertures than 2.8, simply because you almost never want that thin DoF. Now I use my DA35 Macro Ltd for the same kind of photography and I more often stop it down to f/4 than use it wide open at f/2.8, which means that I wouldn't really gain anything by using a full format camera with a fast 50.... IMHO there are really only two prime lenses missing in the Pentax lineup to make it almost perfect: A super wide prime (10mm?) and a fast moderate WA, e.g. 24mm f/2. Some also crave a 135mm f/2-f/2.8, but the latter is to a large extent covered by the 50-135 zoom.

But back to the Nikkor lenses: For me the D800 would only make real sense with some of those great zooms. I won't complain about the high prices, the lenses come first, and if you can't really afford a D800 if you have to use it with cheap lenses. But here's my point: The 24-70/2.8 Nikkor weighs 900 grams, the marvellous 14-24 1000 grams! So you end up with a very bulky system after all, and the OM-D (if you can stand the EVF) with its nice primes - or the K-5 (II (s)) with the limiteds suddenly looks very attractive after all.
great question. for me personally, gaining the 1-2 stops in ISO (and reduced DoF) coming from APS-C , I would be super content with the f4 24-120mm zoom and a set of f/2 28mm, 35mm and 85mm primes.

I couldn't put up with the weight and size of the f2.8 zooms, which is why I'd most likely opt for the D600 instead of the D800 given the choice.
09-28-2012, 02:57 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
K10D - affordable weather sealing (no competition back then, unless you would pay much more), well specified - it took the world by surprise. When it was launched, nothing similar existed - so how can this be a "me too" camera? Too bad Hoya happened, and they lost momentum.
K-7 - while it didn't had the best sensor around, next Photokina the Nikon D7000 was surprisingly similar in specs (and, as a consequence, with the K-5). Who's the "me too"?

And you're comparing those with launching a "full frame" just because the competition launched 3 "full frame" cameras?

It's just simple logic:
- they survived and made quite nice products without even trying (i.e. under Hoya)
- now that they're trying, they can do only better.
the D7000 was the merging of the D300 and D90 lines, I doubt it was a direct 'response' to the K-7...but i digress..

look, don't get me wrong, Pentax make great cameras that tend to be smaller and better built than their competition, it's true. we just want that applied to FF as well. in other words, we want Pentax's take on FF. smaller body, SR, weathersealing, green button, the whole bit....surely you can understand what we're asking for is not a direct copy of a competitors body, just the format.

I personally want an FF Pentax to fully justify purchasing the FA Limiteds, a true distinction of Pentax, wouldn't you agree? it's why I'm still waiting.

as for your optimism, well...I do think Pentax tried.....hard. for example, the K5II is what the K5 should've been, which is what the K7 should've been....they weren't true innovations in between them as much as fixes to valid criticisms of the previous body (ISO, AF...etc). In the end, the whole chain of events went from 14.6mp to just 16.3mp.....same massive 11 SAFOX points.....it took more than once to get it 'right' is all i'm saying.

Ricoh make outstanding cameras as well, I too believe this partnership will be good for Pentax, but you have to understand the apprehension this brand has cultivated in the past 5 years. changing hands that often would make anyone dizzy, and we're still waiting for them to get straightened back out.

09-28-2012, 03:16 AM   #84
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That's what Nikon wants you to believe And it doesn't have to be a response, just recognizing a good concept and following it.

Who are "we"? How many "we" are there, who would actually be ready to pay for a Pentax "full frame"? The real price, not some incredibly low price people are imagining (see the $1500 D600 rumors). I would also like to see a Pentax "full frame", but I'm not that certain I would also buy it, so count me out.
And please, jpette was saying the moment for a "full frame" was this Photokina, because the others had one too. That's as "me too" as it gets.

"Trying" doesn't only refer to the dedication and competence of their engineers; but also to things like funding, having enough personnel... things that were hurting under Hoya. Trying means finally launching the long lens previously removed by Hoya from the roadmap; planning for growth; not caring only about short term margins and cost cutting.
09-28-2012, 04:04 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
great question. for me personally, gaining the 1-2 stops in ISO (and reduced DoF) coming from APS-C , I would be super content with the f4 24-120mm zoom and a set of f/2 28mm, 35mm and 85mm primes.
Thanks! About that zoom: If we suppose that the mystery DA* zoom in the road map is actually a 16-80/2.8, and this lens isn't much bulkier than the 24-120/f4, then a K-5 with that lens may turn out to be very close to a D600 with the 24-120. I guess we might know in a couple of months? The f/2 primes are a bit hard to match, though (although I guess the 85/2 is pretty close to the 55/1.4?), so if you will be using them wide open a lot, it's hard to beat that with a Pentax APS-C kit. Again I miss the fast 24...
09-28-2012, 06:59 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
And if you want a more practical understanding of what makes the Leica camera appropriate for Leica lenses, have a look at this article.

It is pointless to compare a Leica with anything else, because there is no other camera in its class today.
This is like mysterious, behind the mist&fog, mystical superstitious myth behind the Leica cameras cracks me up, I think thats the marketing hype Leica is just needed for. Their lenses are real good but there is nothing magical about way overpriced their cameras, why wouldn't be possible to compare a Leica FF camera with others? Sensor rankings are out there, Even Leica has a lens advantage on those tests, M9 is just a mediocre FF camera, if I am mistaken show us.

From DXOmark

"In comparison with the sensors used by other full-frame main manufacturers, the pixel quality of the Leica M9 sensor remains low."

DxOMark - DxOMark review for the Leica M9

And please check the rankings if you care.

Last edited by cbaytan; 09-28-2012 at 09:46 AM.
09-28-2012, 08:20 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Thanks! About that zoom: If we suppose that the mystery DA* zoom in the road map is actually a 16-80/2.8, and this lens isn't much bulkier than the 24-120/f4, then a K-5 with that lens may turn out to be very close to a D600 with the 24-120. I guess we might know in a couple of months? The f/2 primes are a bit hard to match, though (although I guess the 85/2 is pretty close to the 55/1.4?), so if you will be using them wide open a lot, it's hard to beat that with a Pentax APS-C kit. Again I miss the fast 24...
That 16-80mm f2.8 is quite a big if. would love to see Pentax make it though. All those primes are also available even faster and weathersealed on Nikon (but bigger and pricier) as well.

It's funny about that fast 24 you want. I have the Pentax DA* 24 f/2. But alas, only APS-C....
09-28-2012, 08:30 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That's what Nikon wants you to believe And it doesn't have to be a response, just recognizing a good concept and following it.

Who are "we"? How many "we" are there, who would actually be ready to pay for a Pentax "full frame"? The real price, not some incredibly low price people are imagining (see the $1500 D600 rumors). I would also like to see a Pentax "full frame", but I'm not that certain I would also buy it, so count me out.
And please, jpette was saying the moment for a "full frame" was this Photokina, because the others had one too. That's as "me too" as it gets.

"Trying" doesn't only refer to the dedication and competence of their engineers; but also to things like funding, having enough personnel... things that were hurting under Hoya. Trying means finally launching the long lens previously removed by Hoya from the roadmap; planning for growth; not caring only about short term margins and cost cutting.
See the very first thread/sticky in this forum. WE the Pentax users wanting FF. You're either blind or in complete denial if you insist there aren't a ton of Pentax users here and elsewhere who wouldn't love a Pentax FF camera. Just ask Adam. I'd bet many more users would PAY for the Pentax FF then the 560mm astro-lens you applaud them so much for.

Yes, sure Nikon saw what Pentax did and copied the K-7 concept. Wow, you're really carrying the Pentax flag pretty hard huh? I guess the D800e must've copied the K-5IIs by removing its AA filter, but still managed to come out before....*%&$ Nikon spies!
09-28-2012, 08:45 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
That 16-80mm f2.8 is quite a big if. would love to see Pentax make it though. All those primes are also available even faster and weathersealed on Nikon (but bigger and pricier) as well.

It's funny about that fast 24 you want. I have the Pentax DA* 24 f/2. But alas, only APS-C....
What? Do you have a de Lorean time machine as well?

You did mean the FA* 24/2, right?
09-28-2012, 09:22 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The fastest growing segment in cameras right now isn't mirrorless at all...
Unless mirrorless people are particularly shy about posting their photos on flickr.
Yes, but that market doesn't really grow at the expense of large sensor cameras. It is killing compacts.

Also add the fact that people may lose EXIF when processing photos (none of my photos has any camera EXIF, so they don't add to Pentax and Olympus stats), and it's not surprising that phone cameras are looking like they are taking over the world on flickr.

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
So I wonder - which lenses make you (i.e. those who badly want a FF body) want FF?
Great question,

For me, it would be all the FF lenses that I already own, ranging from LTM, through M42, to adaptall and K mount lenses. I'd like to see how my Cosina 55/1.2 works on FF, for example. I would also be looking at trying some of the modern lenses made for M mount - some of those from Voigtlander and Zeiss have reasonable prices.
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