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10-10-2012, 09:17 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Well, I think it is because it won't sell at all. Mirrorless is mostly bought as P&S substitute. 99% of serious photographers prefer DSLR's.
yes, yes, $1000+ P&S.....


Last edited by illdefined; 10-10-2012 at 10:35 AM.
10-10-2012, 09:35 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
and....yeah you're guessing too. people trend forecast all the time. if you wait for "proof" you're just documenting history, not prognosticating the future.
I think you should let it be... I was already proven right, and your playing with words won't change that.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Nothing at all do with their 90s scandal and falling stock price..(vs. actual camera sales). Pentax and its dizzying dance among owners is certainly a better model of profit-making
As Mistral already said, Olympus was losing money on their Imaging Systems Business before the 2011 scandal (what 90s?). The introduction of m4/3 in 2009 couldn't stop the ISB's decline... even if they gained market share. Now (FY 2012) they seems to be stagnating.
Pentax had to go through a hostile takeover, then being sold to Ricoh; this obviously affected their ability to compete, and would make a mess of their balance sheets. With so many changes, we can't draw any conclusion.

QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
I believe (yes, guessing) with Sony's new partnership, and more vitally their new sensors, their sales will increase considerably in the next coming year. starting with this year's OM-D.
I hope Sony will help them survive (which was the point of that new partnership). By the way, I'm worried about Sony being interested in, and taking control of what is by far the most profitable division of Olympus (Medical Systems Business).
10-10-2012, 09:45 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Well, I think it is because it won't sell at all. Mirrorless is mostly bought as P&S substitute. 99% of serious photographers prefer DSLR's. An FF mirrorless will fit the same niche as a rangefinder did in the film days. Too small a niche to interest the major manufacturerrs.
That's a good description of the current situation (except for the 99% - don't underestimate the attractiveness of compact equipment to some serious photographers!) and now that Olympus with the help of Sony has improved the sensor quality of the m4/3 format, even APS-C mirrorless may look a bit bulky for those that are willing to give up the OVF.

However - where will EVF technology be in 5 or 10 years? It may be wise to plan for that now.
10-10-2012, 10:16 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think you should let it be... I was already proven right, and your playing with words won't change that.
not playing with words, defining them. what do you think 'assume' means exactly?

all you've proven is that you can read old data. The OM-D, NEX6 and X-E1 are just becoming widely available, and the D600/6D weren't even on the market at all. Mistral's data didn't break down SLR's by format, which was what we were talking about, not the death of the SLR.

You choose to ignore new variables and bet on old (and incomplete) data, go right ahead, but we're all in trouble if Pentax does the same.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As Mistral already said, Olympus was losing money on their Imaging Systems Business before the 2011 scandal (what 90s?). The introduction of m4/3 in 2009 couldn't stop the ISB's decline... even if they gained market share. Now (FY 2012) they seems to be stagnating.
Pentax had to go through a hostile takeover, then being sold to Ricoh; this obviously affected their ability to compete, and would make a mess of their balance sheets. With so many changes, we can't draw any conclusion.

I hope Sony will help them survive (which was the point of that new partnership). By the way, I'm worried about Sony being interested in, and taking control of what is by far the most profitable division of Olympus (Medical Systems Business).
The shady business dealings the scandal exposed started in the 90s. and yes, your fear of what Sony might do to Olympus is what Hoya has already done to Pentax.


Last edited by illdefined; 10-10-2012 at 11:03 AM.
10-10-2012, 10:50 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Are you saying Apple should offer iPhones in Black, White and .... Purple?
[Hijack]
Consumer Reports: 'Purple haze' not limited to iPhone 5, Android cameras also have flare
[/hijack]
10-10-2012, 10:58 AM   #186
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Are you suggesting the do-everything SmartPhone might not do photography so well after all?
10-10-2012, 11:15 AM   #187
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Illdefined, we're running in circles and it's both tiresome and pointless. It was simply a "burden of proof" matter (see below your original post), and you failed to provide it.
QuoteOriginally posted by illdefined Quote
Pentax already is being called sub-par by press and media, what they can't afford to do is sit back and not make some real effort right now. the demand and expectation for FF now that high-end DSLRs are becoming synomous with FF dictates their next move. the only risk is not doing it and trying to overspecialize in a shrinking segment.
You're welcome to save this message and prove e.g. next summer, with data for the current fiscal year, that what you're claiming to be happening now is true, and how Pentax failed because they still didn't made a "full frame" DSLR.
Until then, I'll be more optimistic about the APS-C's prospects - and firmly believe it MUST be properly developed, alongside their plans for a future "full frame".
Have a nice day.
10-10-2012, 12:35 PM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Are you suggesting the do-everything SmartPhone might not do photography so well after all?
On the contrary

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography-industry/200739-when-...-wont-cut.html

Lomography

10-10-2012, 01:06 PM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax did take the lead firmly when they invented the SLR, back when they dared to take risks. It was followed by lots of success.
The SLR dates back to the 19th century.

History of the single-lens reflex camera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
10-10-2012, 01:17 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Correct, and if you read that page, you find: "Asahiflex --- The first single lens reflex camera."
10-10-2012, 01:41 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Correct, and if you read that page, you find: "Asahiflex --- The first single lens reflex camera."
If you read the words that follow, you find:
"Asahiflex — the first Single-lens reflex camera [camera] made in Japan"

"The first made in Japan,"
not "The first, made in Japan."

English does need its punctuation.
10-10-2012, 01:46 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
That's a good description of the current situation (except for the 99% - don't underestimate the attractiveness of compact equipment to some serious photographers!) and now that Olympus with the help of Sony has improved the sensor quality of the m4/3 format, even APS-C mirrorless may look a bit bulky for those that are willing to give up the OVF.

However - where will EVF technology be in 5 or 10 years? It may be wise to plan for that now.
I would not put too much stock in the 99% number. Maybe 99% of the photographers who think you have to have a big camera to take good pictures. The technology will get there.

The problem with those old rangefinders was they did not have AF and you could not use them with really long or wide glass. They were limited by the finder. Modern mirrorless cameras don't suffer from these problems. CDAF will eventually become faster than PDAF (The OM-D is already faster than the K-5 for static subjects), and it is already more accurate. AF tracking with CDAF will be better than PDAF.

Certain fields of photography will always use an OVF, but there is a large segment of photography that will be be dominated by mirrorless in the future.
10-10-2012, 02:06 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The problem with those old rangefinders was they did not have AF and you could not use them with really long or wide glass. They were limited by the finder. Modern mirrorless cameras don't suffer from these problems.
Each kind of finder has its issues: You mention the limitations of rangefinders.
(D)SLRs have mirror slap (and you lose the image during exposure).
TLRs had parallax problems.
Mirrorless/LV have resolution and refresh rate limitations.
10-10-2012, 02:16 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Each kind of finder has its issues: You mention the limitations of rangefinders.
(D)SLRs have mirror slap (and you lose the image during exposure).
TLRs had parallax problems.
Mirrorless/LV have resolution and refresh rate limitations.
I think the mirrorless limitations will become less and less prevalent over the next 5 years to the point where they will be negligible.
10-10-2012, 02:46 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I think the mirrorless limitations will become less and less prevalent over the next 5 years to the point where they will be negligible.
We have already seen big improvements in these in just the last couple of years. Manufacturers know what the challenges are and are working to overcome them.

The EVF already has some advantage over OVF and it is not even close to being a refined technology like the OVF.
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