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12-01-2012, 02:09 PM   #496
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
And what about SONY's Aplha 77 + Canon just leaked EOS 7D MkII in this scheme ?

I don't believe your prediction is gonna be 100% true
Of course, I can't be 100% sure

But the A77 sells at 1199,- € (K-5IIs price) at the same store and I am pretty sure Sony doesn't care as they do SLTs only to migrate A-mount users into the NEX camp (NEX7 is 1119,- €). IMHO.

The 7DmkII is an interesting special case (if rumors turn out true). It is a special niche camera aimed at high fps long tele shooters (bird and sports). Nikon thinks this niche is rich enough to afford a D4 (dropping the D300 line). It definitely is a niche within the already small pro market. I don't think a possible 7DmkII will change the rules of the game. More likely, it will look like a curiosity camera when looking back in a couple years. But that's my personal opinion only.

12-01-2012, 02:57 PM   #497
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Of course, I can't be 100% sure

But the A77 sells at 1199,- (K-5IIs price) at the same store and I am pretty sure Sony doesn't care as they do SLTs only to migrate A-mount users into the NEX camp (NEX7 is 1119,- ). IMHO.

The 7DmkII is an interesting special case (if rumors turn out true). It is a special niche camera aimed at high fps long tele shooters (bird and sports). Nikon thinks this niche is rich enough to afford a D4 (dropping the D300 line). It definitely is a niche within the already small pro market. I don't think a possible 7DmkII will change the rules of the game. More likely, it will look like a curiosity camera when looking back in a couple years. But that's my personal opinion only.
Yes but other considerations come into mind, specially AF. It is known (not by me, this is the word on the street and it might be the wring one to you, that's the only one I hear though).
7D users lobe their AF, way better the 5D2, better than 5D (5D3 not sure but seems it's not that much better than the 7D for what gathered unitl now).
Those thinking so will be tempted to go 7D2. A nice sensor with crappy AF is bleh... (this applies to Pentax too of course).
12-01-2012, 04:05 PM   #498
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Of course, I can't be 100% sure

But the A77 sells at 1199,- (K-5IIs price) at the same store and I am pretty sure Sony doesn't care as they do SLTs only to migrate A-mount users into the NEX camp (NEX7 is 1119,- ). IMHO.

The 7DmkII is an interesting special case (if rumors turn out true). It is a special niche camera aimed at high fps long tele shooters (bird and sports). Nikon thinks this niche is rich enough to afford a D4 (dropping the D300 line). It definitely is a niche within the already small pro market. I don't think a possible 7DmkII will change the rules of the game. More likely, it will look like a curiosity camera when looking back in a couple years. But that's my personal opinion only.
So Falk, how sure are you that the D300 line is discontinued? I was still hoping for a24MP D400 for Telephoto use.
12-01-2012, 05:13 PM   #499
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yes but other considerations come into mind, specially AF.
Yes, but recent affordable FF cameras have great AF systems (5DmkIII, 6D, D600, D800, A99).

7D and D300 had great AF in the APSC camp but high end APSC doesn't buy you a better AF anymore.

If the D300 line is discontinued, I don't know but most people in the Nikon camp think so expecting a D7200 or D8000 with some of the D300 genes surviving.

12-01-2012, 05:34 PM   #500
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Yes, but recent affordable FF cameras have great AF systems (5DmkIII, 6D, D600, D800, A99).

7D and D300 had great AF in the APSC camp but high end APSC doesn't buy you a better AF anymore.

If the D300 line is discontinued, I don't know but most people in the Nikon camp think so expecting a D7200 or D8000 with some of the D300 genes surviving.
I expect a D8000 is probably around the corner and that we may not see a D300 replacement.
12-01-2012, 08:16 PM   #501
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
D600
Personally, I was turned off by the AF points of the D600 not covering the whole frame and being the D7000 unit.

Here's the source of my info, I hope it's OK to have a link to these guys here:
Nikon D600 In-Depth Review: Digital Photography Review
12-02-2012, 03:00 AM   #502
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Yes, but recent affordable FF cameras have great AF systems (5DmkIII, 6D, D600, D800, A99).
Have they? I didn't test. I know at first people were happy with 5D2 AF only to realize later it was a dud. So maybe the new cam (5D3, 6D, D600) are a bit too new? THough, as you say, if there's no problem with the AF in those cams, then there's not much for APS cams but specialized use (reach for nature photogs) and price (for a short time). The only thing left is: will those affordable FF drop in price or not?

I still think the D600 has a very nice sensor in a deceiving body but that's the whole marketing point, I know.



QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
7D and D300 had great AF in the APSC camp but high end APSC doesn't buy you a better AF anymore.

If the D300 line is discontinued, I don't know but most people in the Nikon camp think so expecting a D7200 or D8000 with some of the D300 genes surviving.
D7000/D300 combining would make sense if the resulting cam is more of a D300 than D7000 (but the D7000 already ate a bunch of what was the D90-D300 difference). And K5 is exactly there, the D7000/D300 market.

Pentax should use a real body for their FF cam. Not a cheap body la 5D (first Mks at least), 6D, 600D etc.
12-02-2012, 03:02 AM   #503
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QuoteOriginally posted by drugal Quote
Personally, I was turned off by the AF points of the D600 not covering the whole frame and being the D7000 unit.

Here's the source of my info, I hope it's OK to have a link to these guys here:
Nikon D600 In-Depth Review: Digital Photography Review
That's the price to pay, at least in Canon-Nikon land, for those 'cheap' FF cams: lower end bits and pieces everywhere else (body, shutter, some AF specs). I don't say it is robbery. It will satisfy those who just want the sensor, and force other to go higher

12-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #504
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Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:37 AM.
12-02-2012, 09:08 PM   #505
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QuoteOriginally posted by drugal Quote
Personally, I was turned off by the AF points of the D600 not covering the whole frame
Have they ever?
12-03-2012, 02:29 AM   #506
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Two things to keep in mind:

a) market demand: The D600 has dropped in price by 450 EUR (about 585 USD) within less than 3 months. That does send a message. It's lost about the same value as the full price for a brand new K-30... (470 EUR) and about the same what a K-5 lost over 2 years. At least preordering the new entry FF was not an economically good idea.
Mmm I didn't know it fell that much already. I'm surprised but it seems adequate IMO. Interesting dynamic

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
b) market budgets: The average price of DSLRs is 630 EUR. That is where the sales are made (I stay away from guesswork on profitability as only the manufacturers know). And keep in mind the average does include all expensive pro prices, too.

Will be interesting to see where the price of the 6D is going to be 3 months from now.
Yep, clearly.

I still think those two bodies are really lame for the price but I did not expect otherwise.
When a body like K5 can be sold for what it is and I see the price of those FF bodies, it makes me sick for those who buy
12-03-2012, 07:25 AM   #507
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QuoteQuote:
Production costs for a full-frame sensor can exceed twenty times the costs for an APS-C sensor
Full-frame digital SLR - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
12-03-2012, 08:16 AM   #508
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Production costs for a full-frame sensor can exceed twenty times the costs for an APS-C sensor
That's an urban legend dating back to an old Canon marketing paper which I proved spreading misleading information a very long time ago. Just don't belief everything wikipedia
12-03-2012, 08:35 AM   #509
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I still think the D600 has a very nice sensor in a deceiving body but that's the whole marketing point, I know.
I assume you didn't really try to understand what you're talking about.

Generally, Pentax bodies feel a tad more refined, even if you compare a D4 vs. a K-5. But thats's the first impression (partly because they are smaller), I am sure the Nikons are great when weared down.

Otherwise, the D600 body is above a K-5 body, on par on most things and beaten by a few (#card slots, uncompressed hdmi out, better AF.C, 39 point AF with 3D tracking, viewfinder, rgb metering sensor, tethering, sensor size). The K-5 wins for its silent mirror.

But if you talk about a deceiving body then you extrapolate the past. Current FF bodies aren't crippled anymore. Which is why they'll extinct APS-C dSLRs. IMHO. At 1599,- Euro in Germany, the D600 does already occupy the niche the K-5 populated at launch.
12-03-2012, 08:41 AM   #510
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QuoteQuote:
Otherwise, the D600 body is above a K-5 body, on par on most things and beaten by a few (#card slots, uncompressed hdmi out, better AF.C, 39 point AF with 3D tracking, viewfinder, rgb metering sensor, tethering, sensor size). The K-5 wins for its silent mirror.
You'd never know people actually used to take pictures with none of the above. I think you might be caught up in that "impressive gadget" school of photography. There's absolutely no reason not having any of those things, listed above, will prevent you from taking better pictures than those who have them, based on your technique and vision. If you pay for what you don't need, you'll have less money left for what you need. Paying $2000 for a D600 as opposed to 800 for a K-5 costs you $1200 in lenses, for most of us who don't have unlimited income. Once you've taken the picture framed it, hung it up in your booth or gallery, no one cares if the camera had "few (#card slots, uncompressed hdmi out, better AF.C, 39 point AF with 3D tracking, viewfinder, rgb metering sensor, tethering, sensor size)".

Last edited by normhead; 12-03-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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