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12-05-2012, 02:01 AM   #556
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
My very own argument was against selling FF sensors at 3000 $ and above while selling APSC at 1500 $.

Now that uncrippled FF bodies are sold at 1599.- € I am satisfied. Now, the market will sort it all out for us, now that the artificial barrier was removed.

I always said an FF sensor adds maybe 200$ to production and 500$ to market price, which at 799,- € for the D7000 should be 1299.- Euro. But the extra 300 € is well deserved money for Nikon, esp. as he D600 is new and the D7000 is old.
Mmm and the same argument will be used for criticizing K5-II/s price. Right.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
You don't understand pricing in the market. A price isn't production cost. Production cost only sets the lower limit for a price. Price is determined by demand. And Nikon eventually understood how to offer a reasonably attractive SLR again. They deserve the extra margin. That's no rip off.
If priced was determined by demand, the D600 wouldn't sell at 1600 euros or does Nikon sells none of them?

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Like the price for an iPhone 5 is no rip off. Apple may have a high margin on them. But without them, we still would use crappy Windows CE or Blackberry or Symbian smartphones. No Androids and no iPhones. Well deserved by Apple and certainly no rip off.
Right, there's a time for getting the fruit of your investment. And Apple certainly deserved. Hello, we're at the 5th iphone. It has nothing of a revolution anymore and since 4s, there's really not much more different than anywhere else. Oh, right such a closed system always end up this way.

12-05-2012, 03:06 AM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Oh, those bodies which don't require battery, which still runs although they were made in 1975?
Yeah, right, film is a rip off. Only for those who can't see.
I never said Film was a ripoff but I was implying that it was very expensive when compared to what we've become accustomed to with digital.
12-05-2012, 03:44 AM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I never said Film was a ripoff but I was implying that it was very expensive when compared to what we've become accustomed to with digital.
Film is expensive only if you are incapable of making a decent shot Digital has already paid off a photographer's incompetence.
12-05-2012, 03:46 AM   #559
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Oh dear... at this point I leave the conversation

12-05-2012, 04:08 AM   #560
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
This 1/8000s detail is insignificant, after all, a FF shutter is larger and not everybody likes the detonation-sound of the D800/D4 shutters
I wouldn't call it insignificant as it is a full stop difference in bright light when trying to achieve shallow DOF.

I don't quite see how the shutter being larger is relevant. The difference between 1/8000 and 1/4000 is just the size of the traveling slit and while 1/8000 requires higher precision, to the best of my knowledge the shutter need not be quicker or louder than one capable of "only" 1/4000.

I'm sure using a 1/4000 shutter is a bit cheaper than a 1/8000 shutter, but at the price point of a D600 I find such small savings to be annoying as opposed to reasonable.

Of course, saving even small amounts of production costs make a big revenue difference with a mass produced product, but then a D600 wouldn't sell less successfully, if it cost $10 more than it does.
12-05-2012, 06:51 AM   #561
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't quite see how the shutter being larger is relevant. The difference between 1/8000 and 1/4000 is just the size of the traveling slit and while 1/8000 requires higher precision, to the best of my knowledge the shutter need not be quicker or louder than one capable of "only" 1/4000.
I beleive this is right only if you disregard faster flash sync. 1/250 can't be obtain that way, I think.
But Pentax played that trick with the K7/K5 indeed.
12-05-2012, 11:35 AM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I beleive this is right only if you disregard faster flash sync. 1/250 can't be obtain that way, I think.
But Pentax played that trick with the K7/K5 indeed.
They also dropped the sync speed on the D600 to 200 instead of 250
12-05-2012, 11:50 AM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by hangman43 Quote
They also dropped the sync speed on the D600 to 200 instead of 250
Yes this is linked AFAIK, 1/4000 and 1/200 (1/125 to 1/200 actually), 1/8000 and 1/250 (most of the times).

12-05-2012, 11:53 AM   #564
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QuoteQuote:
After looking at what I can get for $2000.
Nikon D600, no lens.
Canon 6D - no lens.
Pentax K-5 ($800) Sigma 8-16 (800) Tamron 17-50 2.8 (400).
Nice cherry picking , today the FF Canon 5D MKII sells for about the same price as the K-5 did when it came out (Launch MSRP: $1749.95 ).
12-05-2012, 01:31 PM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Nice cherry picking , today the FF Canon 5D MKII sells for about the same price as the K-5 did when it came out (Launch MSRP: $1749.95 ).
D600 is still falling in price here, now 1469 gbp down from 1499 a week or so ago. Is it selling and selling well? I do wonder. A K5IIs is 939 gbp, no cheapie. Even so, the D600 doesn't attract me. The dust issues it seems to have had would drive me mad and having handled one a couple of times I do wonder how well it will stand up to a couple of years of hard use. I'd prefer to wait until the first flush of "affordable" FF has passed and some newer and perhaps more solid cams appear. The big unknown, I suppose, is what a Pentax FF would be taking aim at. The target is moving all the time. Do they go up and head more for the D800 level or stay down and head for the D600 one? In any case, a killer 24 meg APS-C cam from Pentax would remove what little interest in FF I have. I might just about be able to afford it for a start. There are plenty of alternatives out there, especially if you value compactness. I do think Nikon are risking their rep to a degree with their latest FF cameras, trading fault-free build quality for market share. Short-term the sales figures might look great but long-term this can store up problems.
12-05-2012, 02:12 PM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
D600 is still falling in price here, now 1469 gbp down from 1499 a week or so ago. Is it selling and selling well? I do wonder. A K5IIs is 939 gbp, no cheapie. Even so, the D600 doesn't attract me. The dust issues it seems to have had would drive me mad and having handled one a couple of times I do wonder how well it will stand up to a couple of years of hard use. I'd prefer to wait until the first flush of "affordable" FF has passed and some newer and perhaps more solid cams appear. The big unknown, I suppose, is what a Pentax FF would be taking aim at. The target is moving all the time. Do they go up and head more for the D800 level or stay down and head for the D600 one? In any case, a killer 24 meg APS-C cam from Pentax would remove what little interest in FF I have. I might just about be able to afford it for a start. There are plenty of alternatives out there, especially if you value compactness. I do think Nikon are risking their rep to a degree with their latest FF cameras, trading fault-free build quality for market share. Short-term the sales figures might look great but long-term this can store up problems.
Unfortunately, fault-free cameras at launch will become an increasingly rare thing. The K-5 had more than its share. The 5D Mark III, D800, D600, they all had some issues at launch. If you remember, when the K5 launched, it had sensor stains issues, then the mirror-flop saga began, and let's not forget about the lens release button falling off. When you have an interplay of increasingly complex electronics and moving parts, things will go wrong. Acutally, I'm suprised the only issue with the D600 has been the dust. The good news is that the problem is apparently all internal and disappears after about 3000 actuations (and a lot of cleaning).
Nikon is attempting to surpass Canon as the world's biggest camera maker so they have aggressively discounted their products to gain market share. In fact, you can expect to D800 to go on sale sometimes after December 15, if the rumours are true. It's not that the D600 and D800 are doing poorly.
I agree that discounting isn't the best strategy for long-term growth but Nikon has enough class leading products that they can take the gamble.
12-05-2012, 02:41 PM   #567
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QuoteOriginally posted by fikkser Quote
Rumors about 7 new cameras, 5 new dslr/mirrorless next year.
K-300
K-3
New 645 with around 60 MP
One guy heard there's a FF coming next year, another guy wrote "Maybe a L-1 in the end of the year." Hard to interpret what he's meaning, but it seems he doubts what the source said, not that the source said maybe. Not clear if it's a Pentax rep or not. Because no one mentions who their source is it's impossible to know if they've talked to the same source.
And possibly a Q-2 WR
Just keeping this little snippet afloat here...

2013 is coming soon. And the CP+ Camera Show begins at the end of January 2013, which isn't that far away. By 2013 Pentax Ricoh will have had a lot of time to cook up some new products, rather than do incremental updates to existing ones. Now that FF's like the D600 and 6D are on the market, a FF in the Pentax product mix in 2013 seems more likely than ever.
12-05-2012, 03:16 PM   #568
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QuoteQuote:
D600 is still falling in price here, now 1469 gbp down from 1499 a week or so ago. Is it selling and selling well? I do wonder. A K5IIs is 939 gbp, no cheapie.
The D600 is #21 on Amazon and in the top 10 DSLRs on Amazon Canon has 5 DSLRs and Nikon has 5 DSLRs . The highest Pentax on the list is the K-30 body at #65 and the K-5IIs is #3,951 in Camera & Photo.

Last edited by jogiba; 12-05-2012 at 04:57 PM.
12-05-2012, 05:00 PM   #569
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D600 is AU$1640 from eGlobal

Nikon D600 Digital SLR Camera Body :: Nikon :: Digital SLR Cameras - eGlobaL Digital Cameras Online Store

IF I were to buy one of those it would end up at $1926 due to taxes.. possibly more if they added duty... a real pisser.
12-05-2012, 11:37 PM   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The D600 is #21 on Amazon and in the top 10 DSLRs on Amazon Canon has 5 DSLRs and Nikon has 5 DSLRs . The highest Pentax on the list is the K-30 body at #65 and the K-5IIs is #3,951 in Camera & Photo.
That's interesting. Showing Canonikon FF against Pentax sales, on the top 50 DSLRs on Amazon in the UK the positions are

1 D3100
9 D800
10 Pentax X5
17 5D Mark II
33 5D Mark III
35 D600
36 K30
38 K5
49 K30

So the D600 might not be doing as well as Nikon were hoping here, hence the price adjustments downwards. The Pentax X5 is a bit of an anomaly, not being a DSLR and being sold off cheap at 173 pounds. In France, traditionally popular for Pentax, the top 50 Amazon positions are

1 D3200
17 D600
19 K30
22 K30
24 D800
28 K30
33 K5
40 5D Mark II
47 K5 II

Otherwise, yes, the lists are dominated by Canonikon. In Amazon in Germany, Canon seems much more popular but FF not so popular and the highest Pentax is a K30 at #60. However, it seems that compared to Europe Pentax in North America have their work cut out

On Amazon in Japan, FWIW, the Amazon top 50 lists have

1 D5100
4 Q
8 Q
19 Q
25 Q
31 Q
36 6D FF
39 K-01
42 5D Mark II
44 K5 Silver ed.

Not directly comparable, perhaps, since they conflate ILC and DSLR and so the list is full of PENs and Nikon Vs. The Nikon FFs are not in the top 50 sellers as a result, the D800E coming at #52 and the D600 at #57.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-06-2012 at 12:14 AM.
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