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12-06-2012, 12:12 AM   #571
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...
I'm sure using a 1/4000 shutter is a bit cheaper than a 1/8000 shutter, but at the price point of a D600 I find such small savings to be annoying as opposed to reasonable.

Of course, saving even small amounts of production costs make a big revenue difference with a mass produced product, but then a D600 wouldn't sell less successfully, if it cost $10 more than it does.
Keep in mind they need to establish some product differentiation from the D800 as well. Doing things like keeping the shutter at 1/4000s isn't a cost-savings measure, it's a product tier upgrade motivator. They keep the AF motor out of the lower-end bodies for the same reason - those motors cost next to nothing and weigh very little.

12-06-2012, 12:17 AM   #572
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QuoteOriginally posted by John Shriver Quote

A good starting guess is that FF sensors should cost four times as much as APS-C sensors. It's probably worse than that.
Which doesn't clash with Falk's $200 delta assertion, since aps-c sensors are thought to be in the $50 range.
12-06-2012, 02:58 AM   #573
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QuoteOriginally posted by leonsroar Quote
Pentax Japan is currently conducting touch & try tour in Osaka (last week), Tokyo (6th/7th), and Nagoya (next week).
At Tokyo session on 7th, Mr. Mikio Tanaka, a professional photographer mentioned that Pentax is currently developing FF.
In addition, after the seminar with Mr. Tanaka, several pentaxian over there have confirmed with Pentax reps that what Mr. Tanaka talked about is nothing inappropriate and/or confidential.
Per those reps, they also have just been notified from top management about that right before the seminar in Tokyo (morning on 6th).
The other pentaxian at the seminar with his D800E was regretfully told by a rep that he could wait for a more while.

Additional note, those pentaxians were surprised at II's AF in dark.
Some with D800 is saying it is better than D800 while the other also with D800 is saying D800 is still better than that.

As no mention about ETA at this time, I will be getting K-5IIs anyway then would add the FF if it turned out true...
Hope to have financial struggles.
The whole world has FF cameras and Pentax is proud not to cover up that they are working on a FF camera.
We still don't know how the K5 IIs works in real world conditions. The k5 II is designed to get money in from christmas sales. Next year we should see FF and many many lenses or maybe nothing real at all.
12-06-2012, 03:02 AM   #574
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Keep in mind they need to establish some product differentiation from the D800 as well.
Sure, this was actually the premisse I started out with. I just also wanted to go along with the argument that some limitations are justifiable and explain that I don't support it.

12-06-2012, 05:42 AM   #575
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Just keeping this little snippet afloat here...

2013 is coming soon. And the CP+ Camera Show begins at the end of January 2013, which isn't that far away. By 2013 Pentax Ricoh will have had a lot of time to cook up some new products, rather than do incremental updates to existing ones. Now that FF's like the D600 and 6D are on the market, a FF in the Pentax product mix in 2013 seems more likely than ever.
I think odds are good. If Pentax hadn't been purchased by Hoya, I think we would have had a full frame product awhile ago. I think the biggest issue is to figure out how to get a camera that will sell well against the D600/D800s that are already on the market. Size certainly could play a part here, but I don't know that small size alone will pull may users away from Nikon/Canon.

My guess would be that they continue in body image stabilization and keep weather sealing, releasing a couple of weather sealed, full-frame compatible lenses with it.
12-06-2012, 06:43 AM   #576
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That's interesting. Showing Canonikon FF against Pentax sales, on the top 50 DSLRs on Amazon in the UK the positions are

1 D3100
9 D800
10 Pentax X5
17 5D Mark II
33 5D Mark III
35 D600
36 K30
38 K5
49 K30

So the D600 might not be doing as well as Nikon were hoping here, hence the price adjustments downwards. The Pentax X5 is a bit of an anomaly, not being a DSLR and being sold off cheap at 173 pounds. In France, traditionally popular for Pentax, the top 50 Amazon positions are

1 D3200
17 D600
19 K30
22 K30
24 D800
28 K30
33 K5
40 5D Mark II
47 K5 II

Otherwise, yes, the lists are dominated by Canonikon. In Amazon in Germany, Canon seems much more popular but FF not so popular and the highest Pentax is a K30 at #60. However, it seems that compared to Europe Pentax in North America have their work cut out

On Amazon in Japan, FWIW, the Amazon top 50 lists have

1 D5100
4 Q
8 Q
19 Q
25 Q
31 Q
36 6D FF
39 K-01
42 5D Mark II
44 K5 Silver ed.

Not directly comparable, perhaps, since they conflate ILC and DSLR and so the list is full of PENs and Nikon Vs. The Nikon FFs are not in the top 50 sellers as a result, the D800E coming at #52 and the D600 at #57.
We should keep in mind the K-30 comes in three colors and it appears each are ranked individually. More meaningful would be these rankings if the surveryers aggregated the figures by body or something like that.
12-06-2012, 07:19 AM   #577
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Thom Hogan wrote an article yesterday that I believe fits well into the discussion at hand even if it is Nikon-centric: Will the real FX please stand up ? at Thom Hogan's Nikon Camera, DSLR, Lens, Flash, and Book site

A couple of highlights:
- FX (that's Nikon-speak for "24x36mm sensor") sales are increasing, but they are still around 5% of Nikon's total ILC camera sales (but may go to 8-9% by end of fiscal year, when the effect of the D600 will be seen).

- FX is not going to replace DX anytime soon, and one of the issues is cost. FWIW, Thom estimates a DX sensor costs 1/10th the price of an FX one.

- He forecasts rebates on the FX bodies soon because the sales are not up to Nikon's expectations.

I know, a lot of it is speculation, but Thom appears to be well-connected to the Nikon world.
12-06-2012, 07:31 AM   #578
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Excepting the few that are waiting for a FF Pentax, I can't imagine where the market will be for a FF Pentax? There are now plenty of FF choices out there, and most have already found them one if it was a burning desire. I can't see it making a big dent in Pentax's bottom line for profits......can you? We operate on desires and needs, corporations operate on profit. Just wondering out loud, maybe I am not on the right track?

Regards!

12-06-2012, 07:49 AM   #579
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Assuming a FF can be made with profit at D600 price point, Pentax can go all in with it's tech level without any need to protect a higher positioned body to compete in this price range.
12-06-2012, 07:54 AM   #580
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QuoteOriginally posted by RBellavance Quote
Thom Hogan wrote an article yesterday that I believe fits well into the discussion at hand even if it is Nikon-centric: Will the real FX please stand up ? at Thom Hogan's Nikon Camera, DSLR, Lens, Flash, and Book site

A couple of highlights:
- FX (that's Nikon-speak for "24x36mm sensor") sales are increasing, but they are still around 5% of Nikon's total ILC camera sales (but may go to 8-9% by end of fiscal year, when the effect of the D600 will be seen).

- FX is not going to replace DX anytime soon, and one of the issues is cost. FWIW, Thom estimates a DX sensor costs 1/10th the price of an FX one.

- He forecasts rebates on the FX bodies soon because the sales are not up to Nikon's expectations.

I know, a lot of it is speculation, but Thom appears to be well-connected to the Nikon world.

Maybe Pentax and FF (or not) depends more on the tastes of the home, Japanese market than might be the case for Canonikon since Pentax seem more centred on Japan. I've no idea how FF is doing in Japan. One can see, however, that small and cute does a lot better there than it does in the West. So, maybe more spins on the Q or (I would like this) a really well done compact with a 1" sensor are more likely in the immediate future than a Pentax FF DSLR (or perhaps also more likely than another K-01-type APS-C mirrorless). For a Pentax FF, sales of one to ten at best compared to an APS-C cam (Tom Hogan's suggestion of the typical ratio is even higher) is a number so small it's quite hard to see how it could be afforded. In the meantime, at a guess, Pentax are more likely to plough on with a solild line of APS-C cams to refresh the K30/K5 lines. But as always, who knows. Pentax aren't saying.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-06-2012 at 08:12 AM.
12-06-2012, 07:58 AM   #581
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Excepting the few that are waiting for a FF Pentax, I can't imagine where the market will be for a FF Pentax?
They would have to approach it in their own way, e.g. with a K-5-like (just slightly larger than K-5) Pentax with updated WR versions of the three amigos and maybe a couple more interesting and compact primes.
12-06-2012, 08:16 AM   #582
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
(...)

I've no idea how FF is doing in Japan. One can see, however, that small and cute does a lot better there than it does in the West.

(...)
According to BCN Ranking, 80 most sold SKU in November 2012 in Japan (cameras with interchangeable lens) included 29 SLR/SLT and 51 mirrorless cameras.

Nikon D600 ranked #31, D800 #36, Canon EOS 5D Mk III #47 and 5D Mk II #53.
12-06-2012, 12:22 PM   #583
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Excepting the few that are waiting for a FF Pentax, I can't imagine where the market will be for a FF Pentax? There are now plenty of FF choices out there, and most have already found them one if it was a burning desire. I can't see it making a big dent in Pentax's bottom line for profits......can you? We operate on desires and needs, corporations operate on profit. Just wondering out loud, maybe I am not on the right track?

Regards!
You might think about PT Barnum's most quoted line (and in China there's probably more than one!). I imagine most of those here who were looking for FF have departed by now (or stuck around, posting in this thread or the non-Pentax ones), but this place is hardly representative of the world at large, or even the potential market for Pentax's mooted FF body.

However well the FF Nikon and Canon bodies are selling, APS-C DSLRs are still outselling them by a wide margin (even some of our favourite MFT prophets here have to acknowledge that), so we can be certain that there's plenty of room for a Pentax offering, especially at the right price and even just with the K-5 level of body differentiation.
12-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #584
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Right, there's a time for getting the fruit of your investment. And Apple certainly deserved. Hello, we're at the 5th iphone. It has nothing of a revolution anymore and since 4s, there's really not much more different than anywhere else. Oh, right such a closed system always end up this way.
I'm trying hard to think of another "closed" system that could be compared here, so I doubt this is really relevant, other than an opportunity to vent. With phones, as with cameras, you get what you pay for, even in the esoteric end of the market. I watch people who bought cheap, low-end smart phones venting their frustrations on them, regularly, but I also see people buying phones in the same price range as the iPhone 5 using them to the same level of operability and being as happy with them as 5 owners. It's a myth that Apple make expensive phones. If you want the performance of a BMW M3, don't kid yourself that a Camry Sportivo will perform at the same level.

Back on topic, the major element missing from the picture is that Pentax will have missed out on some higher returns, as a result of being later to market and unable to charge the same level of premium as the earlier players did. The balancing factor is that technology will have moved on and diversified, meaning that the entry body won't be as expensive to produce, and the shape of the market for a FF body will be better defined than in the early days, not to mention having evolved in the process.
12-06-2012, 01:04 PM   #585
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In the short term Pentax only need to refresh the FA Limiteds and offer a Limited edition Full Frame and call it a Pentax D-LX ( or LXD) . Even though I have a couple of Nikon D800E I'd try to grab that 'set' if the camera looked and felt anything like my old LX did.
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