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12-15-2012, 01:39 PM   #691
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Pentax FF dream

QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
IMHO, even if Pentax is releasing FF now, no one will be rushing into it because 1) FF sensor is still expensive and 2) Pentax needs to improve on other areas such as AF system so that it is at least near or on-par with Canikon FF models to be competitive. For those who think they need FF now, they should choose other brands. For me, unless Canikon makes a FF with similar ergonomic and lightweight as the k-5, I will be waiting for Pentax to release a FF in the sub-$2000 price (hopefully within a year or two ).
I doubt the Pentax user community will spend the money on FF. Not even Nikon with its large economy of scale produces a sub-$2000 FF. Pentax needs to stop slashing the prices on its existing models when it introduces new ones. Given the short product cycle for camera bodies, it really screws its user base resale value-wise.

12-15-2012, 02:01 PM   #692
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Nikon D600

QuoteOriginally posted by Colorado CJ Quote
I personally was tired of waiting. Too many rumors for too long for a Pentax FF. I went ahead and bought a D600.

Will I regret it IF Pentax ever comes out with a FF camera? No, no I will not. I will have been shooting with a great FF camera for at least a year if not longer by the time the Pentax is released (if ever). It is better to shoot with a FF camera now than wait for a year (or more) for Pentax to get on the ball, especially for the low (relative) price and outstanding IQ of the D600.
The Nikon D600 is under a cloud right now similar to the K-5 when introduced. The early on- set and excessive sensor dust issue will hurt their future resale value the same as it has the K-5's. I purchased a D600 a month ago and after 380 shots had dust in the quantity of buck-shot that could not be gotten rid of with a rocket blower and in camera dust removal, which left me with the option of doing a wet cleaning on a brand new camera or spending $80 to have it done professionally. There is information on the net that the amount of dust may decrease over time but nothing from Nikon on the subject. I returned the camera as it was still in its 30-day return period. Check out the Nikonians website. Folks are posting the serial number ranges of affected cameras just like they were here. Have one in the affected range? Even if the problem resolves, it's serial number range has been immortalized as having the problem. I for one am done with taking a hit on resale value because of crappy QC on expensive equipment.
12-15-2012, 02:11 PM   #693
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If a FF MILC is such a bright idea, wouldn't Sony make one? Ask them, who knows...
In any case, they're a much better candidate: they have the technology (on the market, not only in their labs), they have the mount (NEX E supports FF, as proved by their video camera). They both have larger resources at their disposal, and it would cost them less to make what you wish.

Pentax, OTOH, would not only have to introduce new technologies (full R&D costs waiting to be recovered), but also an entirely new MILC system; a one camera system is no good so lower level cameras would also be needed; with the accompanying lenses. This would be in a moment when their utmost concern is rebuilding and growing the K-mount and pushing forward with their professional solution - 645D. Right now they IMO are the worst candidate for a FF (dedicated mount) MILC.

In short: please, stop asking for the unreasonable.

By the way, I'm not sure m4/3 being small is the primarily reason it sells so well; I'd rather say it's the dirt cheap price. The market is flooded with myriads of MILCs, I can still buy NIB ones which are sold for a penny and are some 5 generations old. While consumers are happy with the low prices, is the producing company actually making a profit on that? How well are Olympus and Sony doing?
I don't think such a business model is desirable for Pentax, or any other company.

loveisageless: indeed, it appears Nikon had cut some corners in order to get the D600 as "cheap"; and they heavily reused from the D7000, while expecting much higher sales than what Pentax could manage.
I agree, expecting Pentax to do better, cheaper is not realistic.
12-15-2012, 02:33 PM   #694
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Making a K-01 FF would be asinine. No one would buy it. And the performance would be laughable with the current lenses.

12-15-2012, 02:55 PM - 1 Like   #695
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If a FF MILC is such a bright idea, wouldn't Sony make one? Ask them, who knows...
In any case, they're a much better candidate: they have the technology (on the market, not only in their labs), they have the mount (NEX E supports FF, as proved by their video camera). They both have larger resources at their disposal, and it would cost them less to make what you wish.

Pentax, OTOH, would not only have to introduce new technologies (full R&D costs waiting to be recovered), but also an entirely new MILC system; a one camera system is no good so lower level cameras would also be needed; with the accompanying lenses. This would be in a moment when their utmost concern is rebuilding and growing the K-mount and pushing forward with their professional solution - 645D. Right now they IMO are the worst candidate for a FF (dedicated mount) MILC.

In short: please, stop asking for the unreasonable.

By the way, I'm not sure m4/3 being small is the primarily reason it sells so well; I'd rather say it's the dirt cheap price. The market is flooded with myriads of MILCs, I can still buy NIB ones which are sold for a penny and are some 5 generations old. While consumers are happy with the low prices, is the producing company actually making a profit on that? How well are Olympus and Sony doing?
I don't think such a business model is desirable for Pentax, or any other company.

loveisageless: indeed, it appears Nikon had cut some corners in order to get the D600 as "cheap"; and they heavily reused from the D7000, while expecting much higher sales than what Pentax could manage.
I agree, expecting Pentax to do better, cheaper is not realistic.
On the most recent BCN Japan rankings, 8 out of the top 10 and 13 out of the top 20 bestsellers are mainstream APS-C DSLRs. There are only four FF cams in the top 80, and the most popular at the moment is the Canon 6D in at #23. However, while 27 of the top 80 sellers are APS-C DSLRs, 49 of the top 80 sellers are MILCS. Pentax are in there with the Q doing well in the MILCS, but their only other entry is the K30 at #63. The K5 series is off the list altogether. There aren't that many different APS-C DSLR models anyway, but the whole MILC sector has come from nowhere to a plethora of models really pretty fast.

What this suggests is that there is plenty of mileage left in the APS-C DSLR engine; that FF DSLRs are still a pretty darn minority interest; and that a player without a good MILC strategy may have a problem unless it is dominant in another area, given the sheer numbers of MILCs available. I wonder whether Ricoh can afford not to develop a MILC line with a bigger sensor than the Q. It's no good saying that Pentax are only small and lack the resources, etc. Maybe it's a question of, if you cannot afford the gambling chips you cannot afford to be in the game, so pony up or exit.

Some manufacturers may be busy pushing bigger is better but hefty numbers of the buying public are saying otherwise, perhaps: they'd like smaller but more sophisticated and with the biggest sensor smaller can take.

Anyway, I would guess that FF is the least of Pentax's problems right now. They have their work cut out just keeping themselves in the public eye. And a question arising from the BCN rankings is whether K-mount - which predicates fairly large APS-C and FF DSLRs - is any longer enough to support the company if we are seeing a gradual but permanent shift in buying habits towards smaller but cleverer cameras which don't require an OVF.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-15-2012 at 03:15 PM.
12-15-2012, 03:47 PM   #696
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A quick averaging of the prices, for MILCs and APS-C DSLRs (first 25 entries on bcnranking.jp) resulted in ~48800 vs ~85000 yen. I still believe MILCs apparent success is primarily based on price, rather than size, style or whatever. However, what matters for a company is not the units sold, but the income.
Afaik the APS-C DSLR market is still growing; Pentax is safe with the K-mount.
12-15-2012, 11:38 PM   #697
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Another problem is that a compact FF ILC would not be terribly practical as a system, since, as mentioned in previous posts, FF lenses are often just too big to be used effectively in a compact system. The m43rd system is fast becoming the most popular compact ILC system. The primary reason for that is that the 4/3rds sensor is just small enough to keep the lenses (even the fast zooms) small, while being large enough to get decent quality. In other words, the sensor is optimal in size for a compact ILC system.

If we do see an FF MILC, it will be like the K-01, except with an FF sensor, a viewfinder, and a more conventional design. But it doesn't appear that the market is ready for that product yet. Most people willing to buy an FF camera still want an optical view finder.

A GXR with M-mount FF module, no AA filter and based off the noise handling of K5,K30 would sell boat loads to M lens users and legacy lens lovers.
The aps-c version of it brought the gxr system into the spotlight for Ricoh.
Comes with focus peaking and attachable evf too for ease of focusing.

This is where Ricoh can move faster than Sony with their NEX since they only need to design for manual lenses and not think about existing auto lenses like the NEX platform, as well as the too short registration distance between lens and sensor as shown on the NEX7.

I'd rather see Ricoh/Pentax see some quick success with such a system so that it becomes profitable and viable as a camera maker and continue to be able to make new camera/lenses after this.
12-16-2012, 02:47 AM   #698
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Unlike NEX, it will be a niche product, though; and it would sell in lower quantities than the APS-C module, would that be enough to make it worthwhile?
About speed, as I've said earlier Sony already have all the technologies they needs; and since a FF NEX was rumoured not long ago, maybe even advanced prototypes.

I understand your desire for such special products, but there is no instant recipe for success. Pentax will have to work hard to grow based on what they have - K, 645D, Q; and while special products are welcome, it wouldn't be them to make Pentax profitable and viable.

12-16-2012, 04:27 AM   #699
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QuoteOriginally posted by MrPetkus Quote
Making a K-01 FF would be asinine. No one would buy it. And the performance would be laughable with the current lenses.
With excellent live view I probably would. The K and M lenses might not be considered technically the best in this digital age, but I like their character.
12-16-2012, 05:10 AM   #700
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Pentax are in there with the Q doing well in the MILCS, but their only other entry is the K30 at #63.
Please note that (1) BCN doesn't include all retailers (I don't think they include yodobashi, for instance), and (2) The K-30 is sold in a crazy number of different colors/kits in Japan.
12-16-2012, 05:24 AM   #701
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You mean the focus ring.
With "full-time manual" mechanisms, which can be implemented even with screw drive AF, I don't see it as being an issue. On the contrary, I believe that losing the mechanical connection, replacing it with a system that would only approximate the movement induced by turning the focus ring and introducing lag is a step in the opposite direction, and not towards the good old manual focus lenses feeling.
Yep.
And I'd add that if a failed DA* is very annoying but still lets you MF.
A failed focus by wire lens is a paperweight.
12-16-2012, 05:38 AM   #702
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Please note that (1) BCN doesn't include all retailers (I don't think they include yodobashi, for instance), and (2) The K-30 is sold in a crazy number of different colors/kits in Japan.
It's not the only camera to be out there in a number of different kits/colours though it may well come in more varieties than others. If not all retailers are included, then presumably the same misreporting effect applies to a number of other manufacturers, not only to Pentax? In any case, I was really trying to show the different market areas with a view to suggesting that MILCs (and APS-C) may be more important to Pentax planning than FFs despite all the brouhaha about FF on web forums and the notion among some that MILCs are somehow not proper cameras being "cheap" to buy and often having no VF. As to how the K30 is really doing if one adds together its various incarnations, I have no idea - doing very well, I hope.
12-16-2012, 06:06 AM   #703
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Please note that (1) BCN doesn't include all retailers (I don't think they include yodobashi, for instance), and (2) The K-30 is sold in a crazy number of different colors/kits in Japan.
It's interesting how their figures differs sometimes quite a lot of those from kakaku.com. It's as if BCN is more consumer oriented, and kakaku.com targeted towards photographic communities (e.g. FF cameras are doing pretty well there, and Pentax, better than on BCN).
12-16-2012, 08:27 AM   #704
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How about K01iis wr with new wr pancakes? They are easier to make consider it is internal focusing.
12-16-2012, 08:37 AM   #705
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QuoteOriginally posted by lightbulb Quote
How about K01iis wr with new wr pancakes? They are easier to make consider it is internal focusing.
I'd go for this ... J
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