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12-26-2012, 04:16 AM   #856
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A FF DSLR is the next thing after a high level APS-C one, to push the K-mount forward; and I cannot think of anything more important, than the K-mount. Growing the brand means growing the K-mount.
As with the K-mount itself, the market is not only the existing Pentax users.

12-26-2012, 04:58 AM   #857
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
A FF DSLR will be nice, but it will not grow the Pentax brand much, as not many other than already existing Pentax users will be interested in it.

There are many other types of cameras/products that will be more important for growing the brand.
I believe that the lack of FF scares even a lot of entry level buyers away making Pentax look like a less serious brand in the long run. This is important for the K-mount future.

For the brand as a whole, I agree. A wr milc with rugged, compact, limited style lenses would place pentax on the map imo. Make the lenses FF although the house don't need to be FF yet
12-26-2012, 05:02 AM   #858
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
As with the K-mount itself, the market is not only the existing Pentax users.
No, but very few will jump on the K-mount with a FF DSLR. Probably 95% of new Pentax K-mount users will be from APS-C DSLR.

If Pentax = K-mount, then I doubt they ever will more than a small niche brand. But fortunately Pentax think otherwise which they have shown with Q. They just need to add more mainstream products to their portfolio to be able to grow the brand.

Looking a amazon.com sales ranking, Sony RX100 is #41 ranked in "camera & photo", Sony RX1 #219 and Sony A99 #2,719.
The big difference in ranking between RX1 and A99 is probably because RX1 is also very interesting for users outside existing Sony/Minolta A-mount users.
12-26-2012, 05:11 AM   #859
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
Its only relevant if you talk about equivalent FOV and the apparent DOF it will give.
Otherwise, most of the m4/3 primes are fast (f2 or lower) in terms of light gathering.
Very center sharp too. Much more so that most APS-C/FF lenses.
But then they are often not optically corrected for distortions (firmware corrected) and thus some of the wider lenses have poorer edge sharpness.

Its a format thats very good for those who want lighter and don't care too much about absolute PP ability and some of the DOF/distortion/edge sharpness trade-offs.
They don't know that Pentax has been offering a smaller/lighter DSLR system all this while.
Together with very low prices at the end of each model's lifecycle (ie. 9mth-1yr), this form of camera has picked up sales strongly for the layman.

The other sort of convert that I see are those who have got tired lugged their big Canikon (5DII+24-75/2.8+70-200/2.8 IS) (really big heavy stuff) just for family trips and such.
There was a previous comment of MILCs being 'urban' cameras too, which I agree.
Here in SE Asia, many don't drive and the weather is humid-hot.
No chucking the gear in the car to drive to the next spot.
I see MILCs around a lot (but Canikon presence is v. strong too)
I think that MILCs have done a lot better in Asia than in the United States. I just don't see that many here. The impression that I get is that most people who get them either are basically getting a point and shoot substitute or, a travel camera that they can use in addition to their regular gear. The prices do get pretty low on the bodies, but not so much on the lenses.

That said, I think that Pentax could make a full frame camera that was compact, included in body image stabilization and made full use of Pentax's existing line up of tiny lenses to capture a nice portion of the market. Mirrorless full frame could be done as well, of course, but I guess I don't really see the point yet. It would definitely require an EVF and to my eyes an OVF is better at this point than even the best EVF available.

12-26-2012, 05:29 AM   #860
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
I believe that the lack of FF scares even a lot of entry level buyers away making Pentax look like a less serious brand in the long run. This is important for the K-mount future.
This might be true, but the odds might not be much better with just a FF DSLR, as then it might be the limited lens selection that make them look away from Pentax, or maybe some other reason.

Most user that get a DSLR probably don't even know that different size of sensors is used in the cameras.
12-26-2012, 06:12 AM   #861
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
This might be true, but the odds might not be much better with just a FF DSLR, as then it might be the limited lens selection that make them look away from Pentax, or maybe some other reason.

Most user that get a DSLR probably don't even know that different size of sensors is used in the cameras.
Well, if they don't know about sensor sizes, they probably won't look too much into lens availability before buying into the brand either.
One more advantage with FF K-mount is that there will be many new lenses sold. I get the impression now that people hesitate to buy lenses due to SDM, uncertainties of FF plans etc.
12-26-2012, 06:57 AM   #862
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
No, but very few will jump on the K-mount with a FF DSLR. Probably 95% of new Pentax K-mount users will be from APS-C DSLR.

If Pentax = K-mount, then I doubt they ever will more than a small niche brand. But fortunately Pentax think otherwise which they have shown with Q. They just need to add more mainstream products to their portfolio to be able to grow the brand.

Looking a amazon.com sales ranking, Sony RX100 is #41 ranked in "camera & photo", Sony RX1 #219 and Sony A99 #2,719.
The big difference in ranking between RX1 and A99 is probably because RX1 is also very interesting for users outside existing Sony/Minolta A-mount users.
I think you're underestimating the ability of a high end Pentax K-mount camera to convince new users, but even if most would follow the Pentax APS-C -> Pentax FF route, it doesn't mean the FF won't be able to convince people who are not amongst the current K-mount users. A K-mount FF will not only generate sales, but also strengthen the K-mount system overall.

Amongst enthusiast and higher level cameras, the DSLRs are the most mainstream; their market is still several times larger than MILCs.

The RX1 is quite alone in its niche, an initial surge of sales is not unexpected. The RX100 is much cheaper.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think that MILCs have done a lot better in Asia than in the United States.
The most recent CIPA data shows that MILCs are unable to threaten the DSLRs, except in Japan.
12-26-2012, 07:21 AM   #863
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
A FF DSLR will be nice, but it will not grow the Pentax brand much, as not many other than already existing Pentax users will be interested in it.
Perhaps.

How many professional photographers do you think use Pentax?
How many employees who sell cameras use Pentax?
If someone is dabbling right now, but harbors dreams of eventually becoming serious... how many people off the street are going to recommend Pentax?

12-26-2012, 07:23 AM   #864
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think you're underestimating the ability of a high end Pentax K-mount camera to convince new users, but even if most would follow the Pentax APS-C -> Pentax FF route, it doesn't mean the FF won't be able to convince people who are not amongst the current K-mount users. A K-mount FF will not only generate sales, but also strengthen the K-mount system overall.
Maybe I do, but I doubt that Pentax can sell enough FF DSLR to be able to compete with price on FF DSLR from Canon and Nikon. So Pentax FF DSLR will probably be more expensive or lower specified than competition.

Pentax lack of FF glass will probably also put off many users looking for a FF system.

A FF DSLR is a nice addon to Pentax K-mount lineup, but I don't think it will change Pentax position or grow it as a brand.
12-26-2012, 07:26 AM   #865
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I believe the biggest problem that Pentax has is nothing to do with the products they offer it is the fact that most consumers will buy products that are available at the local level what they can walk in to Best Buy and actually touch. Plus it helps the other brands when ever time you turn on your TV there is a ad for all the others except Pentax most people do not even think about Pentax it has nothing to do with the product a lot to do with Marketing and availability.
12-26-2012, 07:28 AM - 1 Like   #866
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Maybe I do, but I doubt that Pentax can sell enough FF DSLR to be able to compete with price on FF DSLR from Canon and Nikon. So Pentax FF DSLR will probably be more expensive or lower specified than competition.

Pentax lack of FF glass will probably also put off many users looking for a FF system.

A FF DSLR is a nice addon to Pentax K-mount lineup, but I don't think it will change Pentax position or grow it as a brand.

As long as you can not go in a store and actually handle a Pentax I don't care what they come out with the brand will never grow.
12-26-2012, 07:28 AM   #867
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Perhaps.

How many professional photographers do you think use Pentax?
How many employees who sell cameras use Pentax?
If someone is dabbling right now, but harbors dreams of eventually becoming serious... how many people off the street are going to recommend Pentax?
How much did all this change for Sony when they releases FF DSLR?
12-26-2012, 08:15 AM   #868
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Maybe I do, but I doubt that Pentax can sell enough FF DSLR to be able to compete with price on FF DSLR from Canon and Nikon. So Pentax FF DSLR will probably be more expensive or lower specified than competition.

Pentax lack of FF glass will probably also put off many users looking for a FF system.

A FF DSLR is a nice addon to Pentax K-mount lineup, but I don't think it will change Pentax position or grow it as a brand.
Let's take a look at their APS-C cameras; why aren't they more expensive or lower specified than competition? It is only the AF system which retained the same 11 points layout.
The K-30 is well specified for its class, with 100% pentaprism viewfinder, weather sealing and dual wheel controls. The K-5 IIs, while not a major update, it compares well with the competition. Looking at the current entry level Canikon DSLRs, I can't see why Pentax wouldn't be able to do better.

Pentax lack of FF glass is something they would have to solve.

What better solution do you have? I'm sorry, but giving up the K-mount market means losing their customer base; and going back to zero doesn't mean growth. Their best chance is with the K-mount, IMO.
12-26-2012, 09:22 AM   #869
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Yes, and there is room for improvement (new SDM engine...)
12-26-2012, 10:08 AM   #870
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Let's take a look at their APS-C cameras; why aren't they more expensive or lower specified than competition? It is only the AF system which retained the same 11 points layout.
The K-30 is well specified for its class, with 100% pentaprism viewfinder, weather sealing and dual wheel controls. The K-5 IIs, while not a major update, it compares well with the competition. Looking at the current entry level Canikon DSLRs, I can't see why Pentax wouldn't be able to do better.
APS-C cameras sells in much higher volumes than FF, so this is less of a problem for APS-C. But it shows that Pentax has to use same parts in many cameras to get economics of scale.

When mass-producing something you you need to go over a certain volume for R&D and other cost not to add to much on the manufacturing cost. And below a certain volume the components you buy might get much more expensive. This will most likely be a bigger issue for Pentax than Canikon when it comes to FF cameras.

QuoteQuote:
Pentax lack of FF glass is something they would have to solve.
It will probably take years for Pentax to have a full line of FF glass.

QuoteQuote:
What better solution do you have? I'm sorry, but giving up the K-mount market means losing their customer base; and going back to zero doesn't mean growth. Their best chance is with the K-mount, IMO.
For Pentax to grow as a brand they need to be present in more types of markets, not only the DSLR market. To grow by entering new markets will probably take less time and effort than designing a FF system. It's not about giving up K-mount, it's about making Pentax grow as a brand, which will make K-mount more successful as Pentax will have bigger brand recognition.
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