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12-26-2012, 10:34 AM   #871
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
How much did all this change for Sony when they releases FF DSLR?
None. Sony's entry was really not a very good camera for a great deal of FF photographers. Very poor high ISO, poor frame rate IIRC (I'm not an expert on Sony).

12-26-2012, 10:36 AM   #872
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Pentax lack of FF glass is something they would have to solve.
They need two 2.8 zooms and a cheaper standard zoom. Stuff third parties have of course, but it's still only three lenses.

A wider-angle-than 31mm would be nice, as would a wide-angle zoom, but those don't need to be available at launch.
12-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #873
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I agree, for the beginning they can get away with few lenses, and a sensible roadmap.
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
APS-C cameras sells in much higher volumes than FF, so this is less of a problem for APS-C. But it shows that Pentax has to use same parts in many cameras to get economics of scale.

When mass-producing something you you need to go over a certain volume for R&D and other cost not to add to much on the manufacturing cost. And below a certain volume the components you buy might get much more expensive. This will most likely be a bigger issue for Pentax than Canikon when it comes to FF cameras.
The same is true for the big two; it's most visible in the D600, which can be seen as a full frame D7000.
Indeed, it's more difficult for Pentax because of the lower volumes; otherwise they would have a FF already. But I can see a high end APS-C, a FF and a DMF sharing a new, improved platform.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It will probably take years for Pentax to have a full line of FF glass.
Yes, of course. There is no workaround for this; if they'll make the FF, no matter what it'll be, they must work hard at building a lens line. Easier than launching a MILC system, though, since lenses will be shared with the existing K-mount APS-C market.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
For Pentax to grow as a brand they need to be present in more types of markets, not only the DSLR market. To grow by entering new markets will probably take less time and effort than designing a FF system. It's not about giving up K-mount, it's about making Pentax grow as a brand, which will make K-mount more successful as Pentax will have bigger brand recognition.
They are already active on the compact/point&shoot, low-end MILC, small and medium format DSLR markets. Diluting their efforts by unnecessarily adding another market could not be such a good idea. If only it wasn't such a highly competitive yet highly price sensitive market...
12-26-2012, 01:01 PM   #874
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
How many professional photographers do you think use Pentax?
How many employees who sell cameras use Pentax?
If someone is dabbling right now, but harbors dreams of eventually becoming serious... how many people off the street are going to recommend Pentax?
Perhaps the answers would be strikingly different if asked in this way:
How many professional photographers do you think would use Pentax when the FF model comes out?
How many employees who sell cameras would use Pentax when their strong FF contender comes on the market?
How many enthusiasts and amateurs looking to get serious in the vocation are going to recommend Pentax when the FF camera comes on board?

Heads will turn towards a product that gives the D800 a run for its money, and a lens roadmap pointing towards DFA development is a positive sign things are looking up for Pentax, especially with a bold company like Ricoh on its side.

12-26-2012, 01:13 PM   #875
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Well put. Indeed, we should not simply regard the current situation as an insurmountable wall; because Pentax Ricoh is prepared to step forward.
Kitazawa-san said their decisions will have long term impact, didn't he? Something about 10-15 years, IIRC. It will take much less than that to have a significantly stronger K-mount, with (who knows?) a well received FF line.

Of course, the true professional Pentax system is and will remain the medium format.
12-26-2012, 01:51 PM   #876
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Whether or not a Pentax FF will be able to significantly grow Pentax sales is not easy to say and certainly depends on what Pentax managed to create as a unique selling proposition.

I'm very sure, though, that if Pentax doesn't release an FF model soon, they will lose a lot more of current K-mount users medium term.

So an FF model is not just about gaining new customers but also about stopping the (already occurring) bleeding of customers to other brands, in particular of the enthusiast photographer who buys multiple lenses, not just the double lens kit. I do however agree with the idea of an FF model having an indirect positive impact on Pentax sales, through sales personnel, the existence of an upgrade path, etc.
12-26-2012, 02:28 PM   #877
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I agree, the higher end products will allow to attract/keep the spending customers; but it's hard work, and will take some time. I'm sure they can pull it out, seeing what they were able to do within the restrictions imposed by Hoya.
Well, the alternative is to create a very convincing APS-C only K-mount line; the sort of what Olympus attempted, with the 4/3...
12-26-2012, 03:21 PM   #878
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There's no great rush IMO. Although enthusiasts craving a larger format do move on from Pentax because good FF cameras are available elsewhere, this isn't the time to produce a half-hearted FF model just to challenge the D600 and leave those same enthusiasts happy to stick with their 5D/6D or D800 because Pentax had nothing better to offer.

Pentax had their fling with MILC and now hopefully there will be serious R&D put into a serious dSLR FF and a dMF sequel to 645D (amongst other APS-C and bridge camera offerings).

12-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #879
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Indeed, and they seems to take their time making such difficult decisions. Until they find the right answers, there's nothing wrong with continuing developing what they have.
We should see how serious they are, in the not so distant future; they could even prepare quite a surprise or two, who knows
12-27-2012, 01:29 AM   #880
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They are already active on the compact/point&shoot, low-end MILC, small and medium format DSLR markets. Diluting their efforts by unnecessarily adding another market could not be such a good idea. If only it wasn't such a highly competitive yet highly price sensitive market...
One market I would like Pentax to be part of is the advanced large sensor P&S market, a Q body with 1" or larger sensor with fixed 35mm eq lens will probably be a good way of growing Pentax. A large sensor advanced water proof P&S is another product I like to see from Pentax.
12-27-2012, 01:49 AM   #881
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
There's no great rush IMO. Although enthusiasts craving a larger format do move on from Pentax because good FF cameras are available elsewhere, this isn't the time to produce a half-hearted FF model just to challenge the D600 and leave those same enthusiasts happy to stick with their 5D/6D or D800 because Pentax had nothing better to offer.

Pentax had their fling with MILC and now hopefully there will be serious R&D put into a serious dSLR FF and a dMF sequel to 645D (amongst other APS-C and bridge camera offerings).
well... i would've kept my FA Ltd's and other accessories if Pentax would have done a "half-hearted" attempt to challange the D600. Me and others.
I might even have chosen the "half-hearted" Pentax fullframe, even if what i really wanted was the Nikon AF system and flash system.
I would have chosen the "half-hearted" Pentax fullframe because, it would have been a darn great looking and feeling body with more features, better button placement, a tad smaller than the D600 for about the same price (not today though...)
They could even have left out SR imho...

I've said it before and say it again.. Pentax does not need to compete with Canikon FF's....
12-27-2012, 02:33 AM   #882
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
There's no great rush IMO. Although enthusiasts craving a larger format do move on from Pentax because good FF cameras are available elsewhere, this isn't the time to produce a half-hearted FF model just to challenge the D600 and leave those same enthusiasts happy to stick with their 5D/6D or D800 because Pentax had nothing better to offer.
What's half hearted?

I think the bigger part of the Pentaxians would have instabought any Pentax FF, even if it was just the K5 body with a larger sensor, lacking any other upgrades.

And the smaller part would have been dissapointed maybe, but happy with the confirmation that Pentax is serious about FF. Who knows how many jumpers would have been preserved if Pentax had release a half hearted FF body?
12-27-2012, 02:33 AM   #883
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Allow me to reinterpret your words: you would have chosen a Pentax full frame only if it would have been a darn great looking and feeling body with more features, better button placement, a tad smaller than the D600 for about the same price.
No one would buy a Pentax FF no matter what; they all have their requirements, even if assumed. And Pentax must find a balance between such requirements, in order to sell more than a few pieces; besides it's not only the camera but also new lenses are required. I'm afraid a half hearted attempt could actually kill them; and the solution, obviously, is to make it - just not half hearted

Since we're talking about similar products, on the same market - how could they not compete with Canikon FFs?

Clavius, "the bigger part of the Pentaxians"? As in, most Pentaxians would buy a $2000-2500+ camera? No way.
But I do believe it would be an initial surge of sales, due to many Pentaxians waiting for such a product.
12-27-2012, 02:46 AM   #884
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Allow me to reinterpret your words: you would have chosen a Pentax full frame only if it would have been a darn great looking and feeling body with more features, better button placement, a tad smaller than the D600 for about the same price.
No one would buy a Pentax FF no matter what; they all have their requirements, even if assumed. And Pentax must find a balance between such requirements, in order to sell more than a few pieces; besides it's not only the camera but also new lenses are required. I'm afraid a half hearted attempt could actually kill them.


Since we're talking about similar products, on the same market - how could they not compete with Canikon FFs?
you're right! What i wrote was a little to unserious and not thought out.

Ok, like this. I would have bought the "half-hearted attempt Pentax" IF it was anything like the D600, even if it didnt have the same AF system or flash system, wich it wouldn't.
Why? Well... just because. Maybe im a minority in that regard But im certain that i would have liked that Pentax more than the D600 for personal reasons. Those reasons are probably selfish and i cant hold Pentax responsible for such reasons. I have absolutely no understanding in the business itself. Just what i want and dont want
The fact that i sold everything and bought a D600 doesn't help Pentax though... or matter at all in the end.
But im still here, as im interested in Pentax and i like the brand.
12-27-2012, 03:25 AM   #885
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I still believe we (I'm including myself, even though I have absolutely no need for, and can't rationally justify a FF - yet I'd like a real viewfinder) would have better chances to buy a non-half hearted attempt

I don't believe it would be difficult for them to make an excellent FF camera; since they're doing great with their APS-C ones. Electronics&stuff shared with the next high end DSLR, a proper viewfinder, the larger sensor+shutter+SR and an adapted AF system; they can definitely make an amazing camera. I think the main issue is the low market share, even the APS-C models are made at ~20.000 units/month - this is also limiting their ability to launch lenses.
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