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12-28-2012, 03:27 PM   #931
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
These folk aren't the only target market.

Disagree. Many people getting into photography develop their skills and 'grow' into their gear's capabilities. Ask an enthusiast used to the responsiveness to a modern dSLR to now do the same line of work they do with a current generation mirrorless, and you aren't likely to have a great proportion of happy campers.
Ask me, I have a K-01 and a K5. Using the K-01, which is an excellent camera, has opened my eyes to the advantages of MILCS and the sometimes inflated claims made in favour of DSLRs. I took my K-01 and a handful of primes on holiday this year over my K5 and will do so again. Lighter, easy to handle, packs away nicely, attracts little attention (and so ideal for the street), quiet in use. It handled everything I needed it for, to the same standard as my K5 (i.e. 16mp RAW). It doesn't focus as fast as my K5 or do fast RAW frame rates so I doubt it would be much use at sports events but since I do little action stuff this really isn't much of a concern. Besides, I understand that some other MILCs are fast-focusers. I suspect there might be a considerable proportion of happy campers, a surprisingly large one in fact.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
dSLR RRP may well be higher than that of mirrorless cameras of similar output specs, but the journey is just as important as the final results. And in photography, the results can also be determined by the journey. That is to say, ergonomics, responsiveness, and real time viewfinding are all important. Mirrorless cameras are bridging the gap quite well between the compact camera and the dSLR, however dSLR technology is accelerating just as that of MILC. There isn't a ceiling to dSLR capability, and as such it will still be a sought after format alongside MILC, just as we have seen with other brands, but professional dSLR and MILC address the needs of quite different photographers.
There isn't a ceiling to MILC development either, although a lot of folks don't want a journey they just want a camera. My whole point is that "professional dSLR and MILC address the needs of quite different photographers" but that since MILC is where the volume is, camera companies cannot afford to ignore it. And if they don't ignore it because it proves popular then they will develop it. And if they develop it then tech which first appeared on MILCs will migrate up the chain and may eventually change or challenge some things which are currently done with DSLRs. Apart from the 645D, Pentax don't make equipment for professional photographers (at least, not in the way Canonikon do) but the kind of cameras they do make, excellent ones for enthusiasts, are where the high-end of the MILC sector comes in.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Fast, responsive gear is not cheap to produce. Having choice is always a good thing, but we already have that - even with current generation dSLRs. You want 7fps and 1080p video? You can get it even with a brilliant 16Mp sensor for stills for under $800 nowadays. This may still be too expensive for some, but we shouldn't feel entitled to getting professional grade equipment not essential for human survival for less than half of what an average full-time worker earns in a week.
Entitlement doesn't come into it. No one is entitled to anything beyond the birthday suit they were born in. However, if it can be done and done to the right price, then it will be done - see smartphones or the PC industry. I think it's a fairly safe bet that if there were only compacts and DSLRs but nothing in between, then the big DSLR-makers would be having it on with higher prices and lesser specs. DSLR traditionalists who see MILCS as brash newcomers may not realize that if it wasn't for this new sector, chances are they'd be paying even more for their equipment.

What bugs me is that in 2-3 years when my K-01 has had its day, I will be obliged to replace it with another brand of camera because Pentax don't seem interested in MILCs. That'll be maybe one-third of my budget lost to Pentax and gained by someone else. Looking around this forum, quite a few folks seem to be running MILCs from other brands alongside their Pentax kit. A small sum in each case but pretty soon that potentially lost revenue adds up to big sums, and perhaps to a slower rate of upgrading the main DSLR or buying new DSLR lenses too. The writing's already on the wall, I think.

But for the rest, let's just agree to disagree. I would be very dull if everyone saw things in exactly the same way.


Last edited by mecrox; 12-28-2012 at 03:39 PM.
12-28-2012, 03:47 PM   #932
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
If Ricoh never thought about all this until now, yes, it's probably too late. But I am not sure why you read my comments as an ask for Ricoh to start doing something new now, at this very moment. They are just comments about what should have been their plan when they picked up Pentax - that happened more than one year ago.

My hope is that Ricoh has been working towards this goal for the last year and that is why all the products released so far are things that Hoya/Pentax had in the pipeline - since they were already designed, releasing them could be done without distracting their designers as they were working on an entirely new system. Releasing products like the K-5 II suggests to me that Ricoh is buying time to develop something.

Of course, I may be wrong. Ricoh might not have had any designers left after Hoya fired Pentax staff, so this time might have been spent trying to hire people back. Or they might design a new product, but something else than what I am thinking about. We'll see.
You mean, Ricoh should had not only a detailed plan, but also the resources to execute it from day zero? Prepare to be disappointed... well, that is certain to happen, with such unrealistic expectations.

Pentax launched products already in the pipeline, because there simply wasn't enough time do develop new ones; there wasn't really an alternative: either launch several solid products, many being well received on the market, or do nothing at all. Of course they're working on the next products, but not on an entirely new system (unless you're claiming Kitazawa-san is lying).

Hoya definitely didn't fire all "designers".

Yes, I heard about failing sensors, and bad pixels developing (on sensors and LCDs).
12-28-2012, 03:57 PM   #933
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
No one (I hope) is suggesting that DSLRs are about to vanish. For certain kinds of photography they are clearly the best option.
I was suggesting that, but I didn't mean they will vanish completely - just that they'll lose the "enthusiast" market in 5 years and by the end of this decade they will probably lose enough professional market as to either make them expensive weird devices or to disappear completely. By "becoming obsolete", I meant that when some guy wants to "get serious" about photography, they won't even think of asking "what DSLR should I buy" and they'll call you "old school" if they'll see you using one (or maybe DSLR users will introduce themselves as being "old school", like the guy I saw the other day in a store who said he doesn't do post processing).
12-28-2012, 04:04 PM   #934
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You mean, Ricoh should had not only a detailed plan, but also the resources to execute it from day zero?
No, you misunderstood again - I just meant that when Ricoh bought Pentax, I hope they had a plan around what to do with them. I didn't say anything about day zero. They'll probably announce something 1.5 years since they acquired Pentax, so that gives them half a year for restructuring and figuring out how to work and a year for execution. That is plenty of time to come up with a new product. Just look at how long it took Fuji to release the XPro 1 after the X100 - and Fuji were rusted - they didn't have the practice of releasing cameras each year or so like Pentax/Ricoh has.

12-28-2012, 04:30 PM   #935
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I was suggesting that, but I didn't mean they will vanish completely - just that they'll lose the "enthusiast" market in 5 years and by the end of this decade they will probably lose enough professional market as to either make them expensive weird devices or to disappear completely. By "becoming obsolete", I meant that when some guy wants to "get serious" about photography, they won't even think of asking "what DSLR should I buy" and they'll call you "old school" if they'll see you using one (or maybe DSLR users will introduce themselves as being "old school", like the guy I saw the other day in a store who said he doesn't do post processing).
I broadly agree though I don't think it will happen that quickly and there'll still be lots of DSLRs around for photojournalists, sports, wildlife, etc, but I suspect they will have become more niche products with a price to match. TBH, I suspect DSLRs are already seen as old school. Living in a tourist town which gets masses of visitors every day and one with 30K students as well I see an awful lot of cameras out on the street and while plenty of the young do have DSLRs you can almost guarantee that all the older men will have them. "Big camera, big mistake" is certainly a style statement one could make about some visitors and they are often 50-somethings with a baseball cap saying "Canon". Smaller but more sophisticated does seem to be in the air at the moment.

MILCs in the professional market is an interesting idea in view of what was said in that recent interview, that mirrorless may be more suitable for MF than FF/APS-C. Perhaps Pentax could come at this from the high end too and produce an absolutely kick-ass mirrorless cam in the 645D series.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-28-2012 at 04:37 PM.
12-28-2012, 04:50 PM - 1 Like   #936
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
No, you misunderstood again - I just meant that when Ricoh bought Pentax, I hope they had a plan around what to do with them. I didn't say anything about day zero. They'll probably announce something 1.5 years since they acquired Pentax, so that gives them half a year for restructuring and figuring out how to work and a year for execution. That is plenty of time to come up with a new product. Just look at how long it took Fuji to release the XPro 1 after the X100 - and Fuji were rusted - they didn't have the practice of releasing cameras each year or so like Pentax/Ricoh has.
They obviously had a plan, they wanted to be a serious player on the camera market and Pentax offers them this opportunity.
But more specific plans, e.g. restructuring plans, integrating Pentax and Ricoh, specific strategies for the existing product lines etc had to be formulated. Execution cannot start unless enough details are established.
Let's revisit Kitazawa-san's interview: he is talking against launching a fourth, MILC mount and is favoring the DSLR for FF instead of MILC, and K-mount instead of "cutting ties". He's saying how a fourth mount is something that would only be done after careful consideration, thinking ahead 10-15 years. Unless he was lying, how could they already be working on a new mount FF MILC?
OTOH, he said Pentax is working on a FF camera (incl. lenses); even though a marketable product is not yet defined. This is indeed something we could see in a year's time.

But how long where Fuji working on the XPro1? It's not like a company would develop a product, and only after its announcement on the market they would start working on the next one.

mecrox, let's wait first for the MILC market to be at least half of the DSLR one, OK? Until then, all talks about the DSLR's imminent demise are greatly exaggerated
By the way, there is no sophistication into some lousy, cheap, poorly made point&shoots with large-ish sensors.
12-28-2012, 05:15 PM   #937
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
It doesn't focus as fast as my K5 or do fast RAW frame rates so I doubt it would be much use at sports events but since I do little action stuff this really isn't much of a concern.
You've mentioned two significant features which are important in many genres of photography, not just sports.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
a lot of folks don't want a journey they just want a camera
Pentax doesn't pride itself in just making cameras. Sony's first digital FF camera didn't do so well. Why?
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Apart from the 645D, Pentax don't make equipment for professional photographers (at least, not in the way Canonikon do) but the kind of cameras they do make, excellent ones for enthusiasts, are where the high-end of the MILC sector comes in
They're still interested in the professional market. And what of the 5D/6D/D800/D4? Are they less desirable than a high end MILC?
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
However, if it can be done and done to the right price, then it will be done - see smartphones or the PC industry.
You get what you pay for. Get an iPad or iPhone, or pay less for other smartphones or tablets that claim to have the same or better specs, and enjoy the difference.
12-28-2012, 06:09 PM   #938
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
You've mentioned two significant features which are important in many genres of photography, not just sports.


Pentax doesn't pride itself in just making cameras. Sony's first digital FF camera didn't do so well. Why?


They're still interested in the professional market. And what of the 5D/6D/D800/D4? Are they less desirable than a high end MILC?

You get what you pay for. Get an iPad or iPhone, or pay less for other smartphones or tablets that claim to have the same or better specs, and enjoy the difference.
Your post seems to imply that people think the DSLR will become extinct. No one has asserted that it will.

Separately regarding the K-01, it uses an AF system that is already out-of-date opposite others in the MILC field.

12-28-2012, 06:14 PM   #939
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
let's wait first for the MILC market to be at least half of the DSLR one, OK? Until then, all talks about the DSLR's imminent demise are greatly exaggerated
I also consider MILCs alongside dSLRs rather than superseding them. This discussion is becoming far too emotive with the desire to have dSLR development taken over by MILC technology. dSLRs are not 'old school'. Cameras are tools. dSLRs do the job well, and continually advance to provide enthusiasts and professionals with equipment to keep their line of work ticking. MILCs will continually advance as well and provide photographers who want a lightweight kit above all else the ability to get good results.

FF MILC or FF dSLR or otherwise, which would most people prefer and why? Shall we put it to a poll? https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography-industry/209882-next-...oh-pentax.html
12-28-2012, 06:20 PM   #940
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Your post seems to imply that people think the DSLR will become extinct. No one has asserted that it will.
I do not see how from my referred post you have come to this interpretation. I have been putting forth the argument that both formats have their uses and the desire by some to come out with a FF MILC in preference to a FF dSLR is born out of a drive to advance a system considered to be dated.
12-28-2012, 09:59 PM   #941
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
I do not see how from my referred post you have come to this interpretation. I have been putting forth the argument that both formats have their uses and the desire by some to come out with a FF MILC in preference to a FF dSLR is born out of a drive to advance a system considered to be dated.
Sorry, I misinterpreted one of your points in that post (the 3rd).
12-28-2012, 10:02 PM   #942
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No worries mate. It's a good discussion, as futile as it may be.
Diverse people have diverse desires.
I think there's easily enough room for both forms of camera in Pentax, though we already gather from Ricoh that they're focusing more on dSLR developments for the immediate future.
12-28-2012, 11:40 PM   #943
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Most likely, you'll never use a camera long enough to hit such "sensor fatigue" issues. You'll want to get the new model with more processing power and faster everything, rather than stick around with the old one until you start noticing sensor failures.
Wow. I couldn't conceive a more dissatisfying approach to my photography hobby.
12-29-2012, 12:56 AM   #944
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i want a full frame dslr. i don't care about milc, i'm happy with my Q on that front. but if they make one of them as well, that's great for those who want one. but either way, full frame or not, I want a fast AF system that can be banked on in low light, incandescent, daylight, whatever.

they have to get the full package sorted for a FF, it needs to be bloody excellent from the get-go or else it will kill them off. the functionality, layout, extra features etc, i'm not worried about. Pentax will sort that no problem, they've always built great camera's for true photog's. and they'll get better results from the same sony sensor than nikon. I'm confident about that too. It's the AF/AE system that will be the definitive issue imo. if they nail that, and it's a decade-old issue, then the future will be filled with the confidence and reason to build glass to make use of it.

If that means i have to wait a bit longer whilst the engineers come up with a system to do justice to what will almost certainly be a great camera otherwise, then i'm happy to do that. and if in a year or two it becomes apparent that they aren't going to produce one, then i'll upgrade the k5 to a k5IIs, be happy with what sounds like a camera finally free of the front-focus issue indoors that has me constantly second-guessing with the 5, and shoot happily ever after.

In the meantime, I'll use my K5, k10 and Q. I'll probably buy another lens or two. And i'll proudly stick with pentax, because when it's right, it's far in front of the others for image and feel imo. The 7D i sold after a 6 month "trial" convinced me of that.

So Mr Pentax, don't bother with rubbish like ditching the K mount. Just bring AF up to world standard, keep churning out real photography tools, and if you can squeeze a FF sensor inside the worlds best Dslr bodies, then i'll take one and run.

Last edited by saladin; 12-29-2012 at 02:28 AM.
12-29-2012, 02:14 AM   #945
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QuoteOriginally posted by saladin Quote
It's the AF/AE system that will be the definitive issue imo. if they nail that, and it's a decade-old issue, then the future will be filled with the confidence and reason to build glass to make use of it.

If that means i have to wait a bit longer whilst the engineers come up with a system to do justice to what will almost certainly be a great camera otherwise, then i'm happy to do that.
It's, like you have put, many decades that we re waiting "a bit longer".
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