Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-29-2012, 02:54 AM   #946
Ash
Community Manager
Loyal Site Supporter
Ash's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,679
QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
It's, like you have put, many decades that we re waiting "a bit longer".
Is there any issue with SAFOX X that we need to wait any longer for another AF system?
AE hasn't been an issue to me in 7 different Pentax dSLRs, including those with only 16 segment matrix metering systems. That includes with P-TTL flash, with caveats of turning down FEC by 1.5 stops with the K-5 and turning up FEC a little for K10D/K20D cameras. Without knowing those minor global tweaks, I would have said P-TTL was a broken system. As it is, I can live with the minor discrepancies, and welcome perfecting the system in subsequent models, but this problem is far from leading me to switch systems.

12-29-2012, 03:40 AM   #947
Veteran Member




Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,311
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Is there any issue with SAFOX X that we need to wait any longer for another AF system?
AE hasn't been an issue to me in 7 different Pentax dSLRs, including those with only 16 segment matrix metering systems. That includes with P-TTL flash, with caveats of turning down FEC by 1.5 stops with the K-5 and turning up FEC a little for K10D/K20D cameras. Without knowing those minor global tweaks, I would have said P-TTL was a broken system. As it is, I can live with the minor discrepancies, and welcome perfecting the system in subsequent models, but this problem is far from leading me to switch systems.
Regarding AF, many would agree with you and many would not. Thats a matter of personal preference and needs.

I agree on AE though, Pentax metering is clockwork.

Flash... i dont even want to go there. And i wont. Those who like debates can do that.
12-29-2012, 03:45 AM   #948
Ash
Community Manager
Loyal Site Supporter
Ash's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,679
Haha. Very true. I'd like to see the AF getting slicker with existing screw driven lenses but would be keen for Pentax to invest in SDM II development with an even faster focusing action than what is possible with screwdrive.
12-29-2012, 08:18 AM   #949
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
No more bouncing mirrors that degrade IQ.
Prove it. The vast majority of professional photographs have been taking with mirror technology. There is no professional clamour for a mirrorless equivalent of the D800.

It is extremely hard to convince top shooters to abandon the optical VF.

QuoteQuote:
Solid state: no more servicing, calibrating, cleaning, repairing and replacing parts.
The buttons are the most likely failure point by a huge margin on almost all consumer electronics; no advantage there. MILC's still have mechanical shutters, failure point #2, and most shutters will last between 100k and 300k uses for prosumer+ equipment. It's a minor warranty issue. Mirrors rarely fail and only do so in such a small minority of cases they fall into acceptable business risk that the entire product category can easily withstand the occasional anecdote.

QuoteQuote:
Free your LBA: shorter registry distance to mount even more lenses.
That works against manufacturers as it promotes brand hopping. This is why Canon and Nikon do not have FF or APS-C MILCs.

Olympus has been leading the MILC charge, and, corporate malfeasance aside, their balance sheet is awful in large part because their lens sales are terrible compared to Canikon. The last thing you want as a manufacturer is to have your $15 margin MILC body be used for eBay legacy lenses. That's a sure path to bankruptcy. Or you can be like Panasonic and nibble at the edges trying to create a closed system so that other people's glass is not a fixture on your body. The NEX series has the same issues and the way Sony bleeds red ink explains why their FF compact is so expensive.

QuoteQuote:
Space saving because of the dissapearing mirrorbox.
Many people do not like smaller cameras. Many comments about the NEX and GF series being too small. Lens size is the real advantage, not body size. The big knock against the mirror box is the register distance = bigger glass, especially wide angle.

Nevertheless, all serious pro cameras use a mirror for critical VF accuracy and framing. It's a willing tradeoff.

QuoteQuote:
Manufacturing cost saving.
Minor and certainly no deal breaker.

QuoteQuote:
Commercial aftermarket possibility: Exchangeable EVF's? How about being able to exchange the standard EVF with a giant waiste level EVF?
.00000001% of the market. Makes no difference when setting up a product category.

12-29-2012, 08:40 AM   #950
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,615
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Mirrors rarely fail
The mirror of my Spotmatic became sluggish in cold weather,
sometimes failing to drop back down after an exposure.
It needed relubing.
I understand this was not an uncommon problem.
12-29-2012, 08:43 AM   #951
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,615
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It is extremely hard to convince top shooters to abandon the optical VF.
[A]ll serious pro cameras use a mirror for critical VF accuracy and framing.
Rangefinders and view cameras have also been widely used for various kinds of professional photography.
12-29-2012, 09:58 AM   #952
Veteran Member




Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,311
QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Haha. Very true. I'd like to see the AF getting slicker with existing screw driven lenses but would be keen for Pentax to invest in SDM II development with an even faster focusing action than what is possible with screwdrive.
I would love if they really did some effort in the AF system itself in the camera. Screw and SDM is not a problem imho. They're fine, and accuracy is fine.
Pentax has lenses with long throw and short, 50-135 SDM feels slow but 16-50 SDM feels fast, FA 43 feels slow but DA 40 feels fast. Thats a matter of Pentax pleasing the manual focus crowd though.

They need to develop the AF system further, smaller points, tighter placement, and much much faster/smarter computing algorithms for AF-C.
The difference between Nikon AF-C and Pentax AF-C is really big. So big i couldnt let go of the Nikon (thats my needs) and i never even use AF-S anymore, it stays in the AF-C modes doing the work for me.

But, its not about speed, i dont feel that my Nikkor lenses are much faster than Pentax, but i can clearly feel and see the difference in the AF system itself.
12-29-2012, 02:26 PM   #953
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,790
QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Rangefinders and view cameras have also been widely used for various kinds of professional photography.
Both optical VF. By definition an RF and a VC use optical VF paths. An SLR merely adds the mirror, hence "reflex".

QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
The mirror of my Spotmatic became sluggish in cold weather,
sometimes failing to drop back down after an exposure.
It needed relubing.
I understand this was not an uncommon problem.
The D600 has a mirror slap issue with spraying lube on the sensor. Ancient Spotmatic and recent DSLR examples have not dissuaded the SLR form being the dominant design choice in up-market cameras for decades, especially amongst those who make a living in photography. Most of the technical problems with the reflex component have long been solved.

OVF accuracy and the SLR format's versatility are still the benchmark no eye-leve EVF-equipped MILC can replicate yet.

The Pentax AF system still lags. It is the brand's Achilles heel for its intended market. The flash system also lags terribly and should be a low-cost, no-brainer to upgrade. And tethering.

12-29-2012, 10:59 PM   #954
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,538
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The Pentax AF system still lags. It is the brand's Achilles heel for its intended market. The flash system also lags terribly and should be a low-cost, no-brainer to upgrade. And tethering.
that sums up my gripes with Pentax - though to be fair the Flash system is really easy to use in full manual mode - less tedious than canon or sony.I too would like to see a more advanced AF system from pentax - something that can compete with the brilliant AF systems nikon used in the D3 and D4.

I personally think that EVF cameras will be more popular amongst amateur markets where digital gadgetry will compel owners to have the latest and greatest. But OVF cameras will continue to be made. Just imagine the uproar that would ensue if Leica made a M series camera that only used an EVF - I think just about every leicaphile would collectively hit the roof.

Last edited by Digitalis; 12-29-2012 at 11:05 PM.
12-30-2012, 01:12 AM   #955
Ash
Community Manager
Loyal Site Supporter
Ash's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Toowoomba, Queensland
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,679
The P-TTL issues have also been easy to work around, given the consistent overexposure in the latest dSLRs. But I also agree that AF has some tweaking due in Pentax's next camera and I trust that it is getting close to acceptable given the advances SAFOX X has brought to the K-5 II. I agree that the gold standard of OVF will be hard for EVF to replicate. The practical advantages of EVF don't make up for the inherent deficiency in viewing the frame in real time. But again, this is a personal preference.
12-30-2012, 06:06 AM - 1 Like   #956
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2012
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,728
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
that sums up my gripes with Pentax - though to be fair the Flash system is really easy to use in full manual mode - less tedious than canon or sony.I too would like to see a more advanced AF system from pentax - something that can compete with the brilliant AF systems nikon used in the D3 and D4.

I personally think that EVF cameras will be more popular amongst amateur markets where digital gadgetry will compel owners to have the latest and greatest. But OVF cameras will continue to be made. Just imagine the uproar that would ensue if Leica made a M series camera that only used an EVF - I think just about every leicaphile would collectively hit the roof.
There's a post on DPR from an owner of both a K-5 (30,000 shots) and E-M5 (6,000 shots) who provided a very comprehensive comparison of the two cameras. Wish I could find it right now but I can't. No question he's taken enough photos to be qualified to comment objectively.

I won't go into the advantages he lists for the K-5 and I suspect we know what they are anyway. What he did say of real use was around the AF system. Despite the K-5 going lower in light requirement for the AF system, he had a significantly higher overall keeper rate with the E-M5. His specific comment was along the lines of "all of the great IQ capability contained in my K-5 gets lost if the image isn't perfectly in focus and the chances of perfect focus are much better with my E-M5".

What would be really interesting is if this user would find a K-5 II (or K-30 I suppose) to be more on par with his E-M5.
12-30-2012, 09:01 AM   #957
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,115
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Prove it.
I don't have to prove the fact that mirror slapping degrades IQ. If it didn't degrade IQ, then why do DSLRs have a mirror lock up function then?


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
It is extremely hard to convince top shooters to abandon the optical VF.
Strange huh? With all those pro level EVIL's around they still won't switch. Wait what? What pro level EVIL's??


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Mirrors rarely fail and only do so in such a small minority of cases they fall into acceptable business risk that the entire product category can easily withstand the occasional anecdote.
They fail every time the slapping shakes up the camera and degrades IQ. Twice, because of the needless waist of space in camera and lens. Three times over per picture, because due to the mirrorbox the lenses are slower then they could be.


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
That works against manufacturers as it promotes brand hopping. This is why Canon and Nikon do not have FF or APS-C MILCs.
Ohw yeah, and then manufacturers have to combat each other by making the best glass, like in the old days. Instead of just preventing users from switching. A good company doesn't need to trap their customers.


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The last thing you want as a manufacturer is to have your $15 margin MILC body be used for eBay legacy lenses.
Yeah, because you want your DSLR body to be used for eBay legacy lenses, like with Pentax?!?


QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Nevertheless, all serious pro cameras use a mirror for critical VF accuracy and framing.
That's not an argument. They don't use pro mirrorless cameras because there simply are no pro level mirrorless cameras around! The first manufacturer to actually do that will win bigtime IMO.
12-30-2012, 09:27 AM   #958
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,428
I wonder, which is worse: the mirror slap, or holding the typical viewfinderless MILC at arm's lenght?
The mirror slap couldn't prevent the SLRs from almost obliterating rangefinders; did it suddenly become such a big issue?

The only SLR lenses affected by the mirror clearance are wides. OTOH, the SLRs would be better balanced with larger, longer lenses (IMO with anything that's not a pancake; YMMV)

I'm afraid the competition would not be about quality, but price.

If there are no pro level MILCs, maybe that's because there is no real demand for a pro level MILCs?
12-30-2012, 10:08 AM   #959
Veteran Member
ihasa's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: West Midlands
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,054
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I wonder, which is worse: the mirror slap, or holding the typical viewfinderless MILC at arm's lenght?
The mirror slap couldn't prevent the SLRs from almost obliterating rangefinders; did it suddenly become such a big issue?

The only SLR lenses affected by the mirror clearance are wides. OTOH, the SLRs would be better balanced with larger, longer lenses (IMO with anything that's not a pancake; YMMV)

I'm afraid the competition would not be about quality, but price.

If there are no pro level MILCs, maybe that's because there is no real demand for a pro level MILCs?
I never (well OK, rarely) hold a MILC at arms length. Any MILC worth it's salt will have an EVF or tilting/articulating screen (if not both). With the tilting screen, the camera is secured against the belly or chest and the lens supported from underneath with the hand. This set up is rock steady (so long as you don't giggle while taking the picture!)

That said, I don't think mirror-slap is a major issue on DSLRs (the shutter blur on the K7 is another matter) and an OVF is a lot better for long lenses where lining the camera up with your line of sight allows you to find your subject more easily.
12-30-2012, 10:13 AM - 1 Like   #960
Pentaxian




Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Eureka, CA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,832
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Specifically, the comment "DSLRs are for serious photographers..." caught me off guard. I'm under the uninformed impression that maybe 10% or so of DSLRs are purchased by serious photographers.
You're right that many people who own DSLRs aren't serious photographers. But that's not the critical point. The critical point is that if someone is a serious photographer, they will gravitate toward a DSLR as their main camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Lol, so price has nothing to do with it? Or simpler controls (touch screens?) Or video (Panasonics)? Or that the vast majority of those who buy a camera don't need or want f2.8 zooms and all a DSLR can do?
No, but the photographers who invest in systems (and where the profits reside) don't tend to buy entry level stuff (which generally have low margins). They buy the more expensive stuff, with the larger margins. Go to Maroon Bells at dawn in early autumn and you'll find anywhere between 50 to 100 photographers. Examine their gear. You'll hard pressed to find an entry level DSLR and/or a kit lens. You'll see some semi-pro APS-C DSLRs and lots of FF DSLRs, all on expensive tripods, most sporting expensive f2.8 or UWA zooms. Someone who's willing to get up at 4:30 in the morning to get a shot is probably a "serious" photographer. And these people will spend a lot more money on gear than less serious photographers.

If you go to Maroon Bells later in the day, you will see a lot more P&S, cell phones, and entry level DSLRs with kit glass. Some of the people may be talented photographers, but they don't have the same level of commitment as the photographers that come early in the morning.

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The irony is that the "serious and professional photographers" you mention have been mollycoddled for years. They have pro networks to support them, a wide choice of superb fast lenses from different manufacturers and a wide choice of superb but traditional DSLRs to use them on. It's the regular guy who's been shafted, the message being do it the DSLR way or hit the highway.
That's probably true. However, there is a very simple reason for this: it's the serious and professional photographers who buy all the expensive stuff where high margins exist. Margins in consumer stuff are low due to intense competition; so only the big players (i.e., Canon and Nikon) can sell enough product to turn a profit. (And Nikon and Canon intentionally cripple their entry level gear to encourage photographers to buy more expensive stuff with higher margins.) In the end, money talks: people who spend a lot of money will be "mollycoddled." People who only buy an entry level camera and a kit lens won't.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
d800, ff, full-frame, pentax, pentaxian, reps, seminar, tokyo, week
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
ready to go! first development coming soon dj_saunter Film Processing, Scanning, and Darkroom 17 05-15-2011 09:14 PM
Development: Rwanda style. ihasa General Talk 16 04-07-2011 11:37 PM
two bath development icywarm Film Processing, Scanning, and Darkroom 22 01-08-2011 12:27 AM
UN Human Development Report mikemike General Talk 5 11-05-2010 05:55 AM
Any Arrested Development (TV) fans here? RolloR General Talk 8 10-21-2010 08:25 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:07 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top