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12-31-2012, 11:59 AM   #1036
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Indeed, it's precisely formats like APS-C and FF who require most lenses - for no other reason that the market is expecting so. Unless it's a niche product - are you saying Pentax will dramatically increase their market presence by limiting them to a niche?
By the way, the X Pro1 couldn't make into the top 20 best selling cameras, in Japan. It was beaten even by the K-01 (considered a failure by many here). Should Pentax follow such an incredible success?

No, the market for a professional quality FF EVIL is an almost nonexistent niche. If it weren't so, then Sony (for example) would've preferred to make such a higher margin product. Also, I can't accept that a MILC would be better for the professional market than a DSLR; in fact, isn't the size advantage pretty much irrelevant?
I'm sorry, you can claim as many times as you wish that there's a "very strong" market or whatever, but you cannot convince me - unless you'd be able to actually prove such bold claims. In the mean time, in our little poll the DSLR has a strong leading.

Pentax has a better CDAF than Canon's hybrid AF system, by the way


Last edited by Kunzite; 12-31-2012 at 12:06 PM.
12-31-2012, 12:35 PM   #1037
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
One market I would like Pentax to be part of is the advanced large sensor P&S market, a Q body with 1" or larger sensor with fixed 35mm eq lens will probably be a good way of growing Pentax. A large sensor advanced water proof P&S is another product I like to see from Pentax.
I like both those ideas. I'd like to have a take everywhere P&S that I can have with me all the time. I want high IQ with good manual controls and ergonomics; something I haven't found in any P&S as of yet.
12-31-2012, 12:46 PM   #1038
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomTextura Quote
I like both those ideas. I'd like to have a take everywhere P&S that I can have with me all the time. I want high IQ with good manual controls and ergonomics; something I haven't found in any P&S as of yet.
There are prosumers that do what you ask, but there's only so much you can ask of a small sensor, like in the LX5 or the P7700.

If Canon can work out the G2x with a faster lens, better overall operation and ergonomics, it will fit the bill. Hell, I'm even considering it now for my second cam during concerts for wide-angle usage.
12-31-2012, 12:54 PM   #1039
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Indeed, it's precisely formats like APS-C and FF who require most lenses - for no other reason that the market is expecting so. Unless it's a niche product - are you saying Pentax will dramatically increase their market presence by limiting them to a niche?
By the way, the X Pro1 couldn't make into the top 20 best selling cameras, in Japan. It was beaten even by the K-01 (considered a failure by many here). Should Pentax follow such an incredible success?
The Fuji XP1 sold for 2x the price. Simply because it did not make the list of top consumer cameras in Japan doesn't mean it was not a huge success. I don't see any professional or high-end enthusiast cameras on the list except the NEX-7. Fuji could not keep up with demand for the XP1 and Olympus could not keep up with demand for the EM-5. Both cameras were much more successful than the K-01. There are lots of reviews comparing the Fuji XP1, Olympus EM-5, and Sony NEX-7. I have yet to see one that includes the Pentax K-01 in the conversation.

How do you keep coming up with the idea that I want to "limit" Pentax to a niche product? I keep saying they should expand and ADD a FF EVIL. How is expanding the product line-up limiting them to a niche?

The Fuji X-mount is now being stocked at my local pro-shop..... Real display space and inventory. They have not stocked Pentax since the K-1000 was being used by students. Fuji has done more in 1 year with product and marketing than Pentax has in the last 5. Maybe I should be looking for the K-01 at Toy-R-Us instead. Right next to the Fisher-Price Fisher-Price Kid-Tough Digital Camera - Blue - Fisher-Price - Toys "R" Us

12-31-2012, 12:57 PM   #1040
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I'm all for an FF mirror-less camera with a new mount as long it comes along with an adapter to allow me to use my old lenses on.
I see nothing wrong with that.
And go retro on the look too while you are at it . An LX, MX and even ME will look great in retro (but please use a proper camera designer so majority won't bitch and moan too much ).

If they keep the K mount, all the better, can't complain. And I am OK with either mirror-less or SRL.

Pentax, I'm a very easy-going person. Just leave a back door open for those with older lenses if deciding on a new mount .
12-31-2012, 01:01 PM   #1041
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There are lots of reviews comparing the Fuji XP1, Olympus EM-5, and Sony NEX-7. I have yet to see one that includes the Pentax K-01 in the conversation.
Because it doesn't have a viewfinder and that excluded it right away from a category where the cameras had viewfinders.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
By the way, the X Pro1 couldn't make into the top 20 best selling cameras, in Japan. It was beaten even by the K-01 (considered a failure by many here). Should Pentax follow such an incredible success?
Because, in the end, Pentax flooded the market with deeply discounted K-01s to get them out and generate cash flow and gain market share, no matter the cost. I'm guessing the next gen won't be so fashion oriented with design, but will rather be function driven in the design area.
12-31-2012, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #1042
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm sorry, you can claim as many times as you wish that there's a "very strong" market or whatever, but you cannot convince me - unless you'd be able to actually prove such bold claims. In the mean time, in our little poll the DSLR has a strong leading.
Do it come as a surprise that among hardcore K-mount users, 80% of them want a K-mount camera next?
12-31-2012, 01:22 PM   #1043
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QuoteOriginally posted by snake Quote
Because, in the end, Pentax flooded the market with deeply discounted K-01s to get them out and generate cash flow and gain market share, no matter the cost. I'm guessing the next gen won't be so fashion oriented with design, but will rather be function driven in the design area.
Even so, most of its competition were also deeply discounted viewfinderless MILCs. It seems this is the path to gain market share on the MILC market

The 3 MILCs integrating an EVF are grouped just below the half of that chart, for a 9.5% combined market share. From the missing 8.9%, how many are cameras comparable with those (including the X Pro1), and how many the other cheap viewfinderless MILCs?
And those are not FF MILCs, but more affordable, APS-C and m4/3 ones. The case for Pentax launching an entire system with one FF MILC is extremely weak, IMO.

I hope Pentax will try again with a "K-02", as you said more function driven, and refining every aspect which wasn't well received by the market.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Do it come as a surprise that among hardcore K-mount users, 80% of them want a K-mount camera next?
But don't you think Pentax should, first and foremost, listen to their customers?


Last edited by Kunzite; 12-31-2012 at 01:30 PM.
12-31-2012, 01:25 PM   #1044
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Fuji X-mount is now being stocked at my local pro-shop..... Real display space and inventory. They have not stocked Pentax since the K-1000 was being used by students

That is exactly what I have been saying Marketing and availability is where Pentax has failed not in the products they offer the K-5 out performed all of the APS-c cameras in its class and the K-30 is better than the competition but your average camera buyer does not know this. The average camera buyer goes into Best Buy are one of the other big box stores most do not even go to a actual camera store so what do they see when they walk in? Canon and Nikon and Sony no Pentax to be found and if you do buy a Pentax accessories are just as hard to find.

I really believe they need to fix the marketing and availability issues before they launch whatever the next flagship camera is.
12-31-2012, 02:25 PM   #1045
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QuoteOriginally posted by hangman43 Quote
That is exactly what I have been saying Marketing and availability is where Pentax has failed not in the products they offer the K-5 out performed all of the APS-c cameras in its class and the K-30 is better than the competition but your average camera buyer does not know this. The average camera buyer goes into Best Buy are one of the other big box stores most do not even go to a actual camera store so what do they see when they walk in? Canon and Nikon and Sony no Pentax to be found and if you do buy a Pentax accessories are just as hard to find.

I really believe they need to fix the marketing and availability issues before they launch whatever the next flagship camera is.
Maybe Pentax just don't have the production facilities to produce the quantities of kit which distribution in big stores like this would involve? Blanketing national chains with stock of DSLRs must be an order of magnitude different to what they've done so far.
12-31-2012, 03:35 PM   #1046
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Even so, most of its competition were also deeply discounted viewfinderless MILCs. It seems this is the path to gain market share on the MILC market
As I pointed out before, this can't be true. Excluding the high end / pro segment of DSLRs (because there is no MILC in that segment) your own data indicates that the average price for DSLRs and MILCs is roughly equivalent.
12-31-2012, 04:01 PM   #1047
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Maybe Pentax just don't have the production facilities to produce the quantities of kit which distribution in big stores like this would involve? Blanketing national chains with stock of DSLRs must be an order of magnitude different to what they've done so far.

They sell online through major stores they would not have to start out in all stores they could pick one and go with it maybe come out with a kit that is exclusive to say Best Buy to get started then expand from there.
12-31-2012, 04:45 PM   #1048
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
When talking about making a FF EVIL, we're not talking about make a camera for the typical super-soft-super-slow-super-zoom kit shooter. We are talking about a camera that will fit a specific role for a specific type of photographer. Wedding photographers make up over half of all professional photographers. If you include commercial and portrait photographers you account for 70%+ of the professional industry.

The market for a professional quality FF EVIL with 5 high grade lenses is very strong. Pentax could develop a FF EVIL and release it with a K-mount adapter and 1 new really high quality prime (50mm) and it would sell like crazy and drive sales for K-mount glass like the 31mm and 71mm. We're not talking about a huge system that will consume massive resources. Pentax could build the screw drive motor into the adapter to retain AF capability with older K-mount lenses. The screw drive lenses actually work better with CDAF than SDM does.

Right now however Pentax does not have the CDAF technology to compete with an EVIL system. Pentax really needs to address this if they want to compete.
A market not for Pentax anymore is professional sportsphotography, but that is also a large market.

However I see your point I still think there is a market for a cheap evil FF camera directed at amature- and familyshooters. When the price is right they will buy it.

When the FA lenses is a target, then you might aswell just use the K-mount. I know K-01 wasn't a succes, but maybe also not different enough from a K-30. Pentax-family is a rather conservative and cheapskate kind of photographer, so trying them to make them pay extra for a yellow brick was asked to much.

Someone mentioned that Sony didn't make a ff Nex. Well maybe it is the short flangdistance that is the dealbreaker for such a system when it comes to wide-angle lenses.
12-31-2012, 05:14 PM   #1049
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
As I pointed out before, this can't be true. Excluding the high end / pro segment of DSLRs (because there is no MILC in that segment) your own data indicates that the average price for DSLRs and MILCs is roughly equivalent.
If 30% more expensive means "roughly equivalent"...
I can't exclude what you want for two reasons:
- CIPA doesn't publish separate data for high end and mid/low end DSLRs, afaik. Are those enough to explain the 30% difference? FF cameras having what, about 10% market share?
- you are asking to erase an advantage of the DSLR market - its ability to sell higher end cameras, for no other reason than to make MILCs look better. There is no proof that, if someone would make a high end / pro MILC camera, it would sell.

Ron, what do you mean by "cheap"? $2500? $3000?
12-31-2012, 05:34 PM   #1050
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
...a cheap evil FF camera directed at amature- and familyshooters. When the price is right they will buy it.
But only if sales staff can explain and know themselves why and what the difference is.

I have for along time, when ever I get the opportunity, ask dozens and dozens of people if they know what a FF camera was and get this blank look facing me. The only exception is if I ask this question to older people who may have started their interest in photography in the film days.

When I ask if they know what size their camera's sensor is they are able to tell me the MP count because the sales people told them it is important the higher the better. When I ask if they know the format of their cam's sensor they have no clue. But they also point out very quickly it takes nice pictures. And even those who have a DSLR I find it is set to scene mode or automatic.

So in my view FF would also require an education component as part of marketing.

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