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01-16-2013, 09:00 AM   #1156
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cali92rs: That is not a given; the compacts market is ~5 times as large as the ILC market, however they're similar in value. It's also a low or non-existent margin declining market.

01-16-2013, 09:15 AM   #1157
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Indeed, the compact camera market is around 4 times bigger in units than the interchangeable lens camera market and slightly smaller in value, at least when observing Japanese manufacturers figures as reported by CIPA:

Cameras with built-in lens /// Cameras with Interchangeable Lens

Number of Units Shipped = = 74.6 = = /// = = 18.7 = =
(in million)

Sales = = 681.6 = = /// = = 702.8 = =
(in JPY billion)

Source : Camera & Imaging Products Association, January to November 2012 http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/pdf/d-201211_e.pdf
01-16-2013, 09:23 AM   #1158
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My bad, 4 times - not 5, and in November it declined to ~3 times. I was using the same CIPA data.
Thanks for the correction and the additional details.
01-16-2013, 09:33 AM   #1159
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cann't wait the ff

01-16-2013, 11:39 PM   #1160
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
The Samsung rumour means that perhaps as early as March 2013, we may see mirrorless FF sensor cameras compete with the older APS DSLRs. I'm assuming that mirrorless FF cameras can be produced at lower cost that FF dslrs.

Ultimately then the new mirrorless FF cameras from Samsung and Sony will be putting the price pressure on Pentax, Canon and Nikon APS DSLRs. It will be interesting to see which product the marketplace chooses to favor.
Samsung wanted to build a FF DSLR a while back but Pentax said no.
01-17-2013, 02:08 AM   #1161
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I have posted this idea first in the speed booster post, but I think here it'd be also appropriate.

What if... the full frame Pentax used an APS-C sensor? These APS-C sensors are pretty good. Use one with PDAF. Instead of the mirror box there will be something like the Speed Booster adapter. This adapter can slide to the side, or better yet, to the area where the pentaprism used to be. If you are not aware of the adapter, it's a reverse teleconverter. Making the image circle smaller and brighter. As a result your 50mm full frame lens will be 50mm on the APS-C sensor, but f1.2 rather than 1.4 (for example). As the adapter can be used, or not used, you both have an APS-C camera, compatible with the APS-C lenses, and a FF camera. And you can use FF lenses like on an APS-C camera, giving you a higher focal length. Since the FF lens will be faster with the adapter it may not do much worse than a real FF sensor, but you do get much more flexibility (which given Pentax' lens line up wouldn't be a bad thing).

The adapter is quite expensive, but it is produced in small numbers. Pentax may bring down the cost a bit. Also since you don't need to use an expensive FF sensor, who knows, maybe in the end the camera will stay below the pricing of a regular FF camera. It may even keep a similar size to the K-5 (the optics in the adapter don't look very big: http://2.static.img-dpreview.com/files/news/8961802602/520/speed-booster.jpg?v=1907 ). Sure doing this won't be trivial (a movable part that needs to not let through light next to it in both positions, and that needs to be in precisely the right position when in use...), but the advantages... It is also something that no other manufacturer has, or ever will have (they already have FF, while Pentax doesn't). Wasn't Pentax looking for something that differentiates them from other brands?

Finally, oppo for example is now using a 5" Full HD screen on their latest and greatest phone. Give us something like that as a display (maybe smaller, so that there is still space for the controls). Cover it up with Gorilla Glass 3, that is placed a bit recessed. With such a high resolution manually focusing during video should be easy and enjoyable. Heck, I could even imagine a detachable, wired (enough range to have the camera in any position you want within reach of your hands) viewfinder that can be mounted to your glasses/head.

Edit: Thinking about it further, the size looks like it could easily slide to the right side of the camera. Should make it easier to keep the exact position, and to avoid light leaks. As viewfinder... basically this: http://www.amazon.com/Sony-FDA-EV1S-Electronic-Viewfinder-Digital/dp/B005K8AUOI But wired (it could even be optional to save money, so you can have no viewfinder, one that plugs into the camera or a cable to make it possible to have the viewfinder in use away from the camera. A rubber strap could be attached to it, and then go around your head. Won't be pretty, but hey, it might be useful. You'd be easily able to get all sorts of angles, under any light condition (tiltable screens won't work under harsh sunlight...)).

Last edited by kadajawi; 01-17-2013 at 02:31 AM.
01-17-2013, 03:02 AM   #1162
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Indeed, the compact camera market is around 4 times bigger in units than the interchangeable lens camera market and slightly smaller in value

but there arent sales of lenses in this calculation .. btw funny to see that europe is the biggest market (as long as u dont merge japan and asia)
01-17-2013, 03:42 AM   #1163
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@dosdan (where is your post?): Your FF glass gets faster, while you can still shoot with your APS-C glass. DR won't profit from that, but in terms of low light performance... while a true FF camera will be better, it won't be that bad. According to snapsort with the D800 you gain 1.3 fstops over the K-5. Keep in mind the K-5 sensor is around 2 years old... the latest APS-C sensor may have reduced that advantage (though the NEX 5R sensor doesn't seem to be an improvement (it does have PDAF). Also the adapter adds 1 fstop. So will the difference be big? More sensitive sensor, vs faster glass. Of course that's only when you shoot wide open. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this... will a 50mm 1.4, at 1.4, on a FF camera look almost the same as the 50 1.4 (turned into a 50mm 1.0) on an APS-C camera with adapter? I should think so, but I'm not sure.

Yes, more MP. You could cram in more MP (though not D800 levels). Not sure you'd want to though. Personally I'm more than happy with 16 MP, could do with less. But sensors do improve over time. Higher resolution, lower noise levels. So unless you want the absolutely best performance and highest resolutions...

So far comments seem to have been great on the Speed Booster adapter. If they can do it, why can't Pentax?

Metabones - Metabones and Caldwell Photographic Introduce Speed Booster
An adaptor which claims to make your lens, faster, wider and better!! This is NOT an April Fool’s! | Philip Bloom
Apparently this thing, compared to directly using the FF lens on an APS-C sensor, would improve the image quality. There are a few sample photos. Also Olympus seems to have internally added something like this to some of their lenses, to make them better suited to their mFT cameras. Seems to work great.

The shift in weight... the lens would be very close to the camera, and it doesn't look very heavy. Look at FF DSLRs. They aren't exactly small or light. Since mirror box and optical viewfinder system would be missing that would save weight. The only concern is the shift of weight to the right when not using the adapter. That is where you hold the camera though, so it might not be a big issue.

Now obviously directly using a FF sensor will give better image quality (but the APS-C + adapter will be better than APS-C alone), though who knows how much. But it takes away flexibility, and it might be more bulky. A pure FF camera from Pentax would be a bit of a me too effort. It might be a bit smaller, a bit better ergonomically, a bit lighter. But is that enough, when Canikon has a better selection of lenses?

01-17-2013, 03:51 AM - 1 Like   #1164
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@dosdan (where is your post?):
I deleted it. Here it is again:

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote

What if... the full frame Pentax used an APS-C sensor?
I don't hunger for FF, but let's consider this further.

An FF sensor is more than just about the CF. It's also about the 2.25x bigger sensor area compared to an APS-C sensor. With a reverse tele-converter, you've still got the same read noise and the same FWC (since it's still a APS-C sensor). So same DR, shot noise, same potential resolution, same read noise (deep shadows). But since you have an extra lens, you've got: more aberrations (less sharpness, less contrast, more PF), some transmission loss, more weight further forward so a change in the balance point, extra cost.

So I can't really get excited about this at all.

Dan
01-17-2013, 07:33 AM   #1165
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
Speculation is that in-body stabilization needs bigger image circles that current lenses are providing, although that's unproven I think. So they need to decide what the stabilizing strategy is going to be...
Well I think, if Pentax uses a sensor, a bit smaller than FF, letīs say a crop 1,1 it will be still FF for me, and the image circle would be enough. I donīt want to miss SD in my camera, and Sony is for me a no go.
01-17-2013, 08:13 AM   #1166
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
So far comments seem to have been great on the Speed Booster adapter. If they can do it, why can't Pentax?
Pentax would have to introduce a reduced flange distance mount for it to work. While I would support that (for any future Pentax MILCs) it's not going to be relevant to DSLR owners. Hey they could build a MILC with something like a speed booster adapter ready integrated, and have it accept K - mount lenses... Is that what you meant?

Last edited by ihasa; 01-17-2013 at 08:21 AM.
01-17-2013, 08:28 AM   #1167
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That would be better suited for GXR mountors IMO (with/without integrated "speed booster"); ignoring the legal aspects of "stealing" another company's idea.
01-17-2013, 08:31 AM   #1168
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
Pentax would have to introduce a reduced flange distance mount for it to work. While I would support that (for any future Pentax MILCs) it's not going to be relevant to DSLR owners. Hey they could build a MILC with something like a speed booster adapter ready integrated, and have it accept K - mount lenses... Is that what you meant?
Hm, no, I was thinking of putting the converter into the body. On rails. So when you want to use it you can just press a button, the converter slides into place and the camera can use FF lenses natively. So basically it is a APS-C based MILC that has the regular PK mount, but can be used with DA and FA lenses. FA either with the 1.5x crop or the way they were meant to be. Think of it like the integrated ND filter that some cameras have. Could be set against cameras like the OM-D as well as FF cameras. A small and light (sort of) alternative to FF.

Hm. But Olympus seems to have done this, built into some of their lenses (not removable). Metabones is doing it via an adapter. Doing it in body would be new. Maybe I should patent it? If this idea is indeed already covered by Metabones' patents maybe they could license the stuff?

Do you mean GXR mounts as in adapters for the APS-C sensor thing for the GXR? Metabones could offer such an adapter... Offering 2 different camera modules, one with and one without adapter would add quite some bulk to the bag, and you'd have to buy 2 sensors. That'd be a waste IMHO.

Last edited by kadajawi; 01-17-2013 at 08:39 AM.
01-17-2013, 08:36 AM   #1169
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Small and light, with that sort of mechanism inside - I don't think so.
01-17-2013, 08:40 AM   #1170
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I was thinking of putting the converter into the body.
Wouldn't it be simpler to design the lenses that way in the first place? instead of putting an adapter like that into the body itself? To be honest the idea has its merits but it isn't very practical- and it wouldn't solve the issue that pentax simply doesn't have a camera with a 24mmX36mm sensor in it.
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