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01-17-2013, 09:17 AM   #1171
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@Kunzite: Compared to, say, a FF camera? Not sure how much magic Pentax can do with a FF camera to bring down size and weight.

@Digitalis: Ah yes, but where are these lenses? The lens line up is not that great. Also it doesn't help with older lenses, and people would have to re-buy lenses. At that point, why not just switch to Sony, Nikon or Canon? I kind of like the ergonomics of recent Sonys, and they are quite light while not feeling too flimsy.

Since lenses get brighter through the adapter at least 2 advantages of FF would be lessened. Mounting FF lenses, and use them as such, and low light sensitivity would be improved by about 1 fstop. Also by going MILC, by putting in an EVF the advantage of a bigger viewfinder would also be crossed out. The Sony alpha 77 has a reasonable viewfinder from what I know. It wouldn't fully replace a FF camera, but for me that's what I'd want over a real FF camera.

01-17-2013, 09:24 AM   #1172
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Yes, compared to a FF camera.
A FF camera don't have to be much larger than an APS-C one; scaling the sensor platform/SR/mirror mechanism, maybe more processing power, a larger pentaprism + viewfinder, maybe a larger AF system - you can still get a quite compact camera.
However, sliding "speedbooster" optics is like having two mirror boxes one next to the other; it will not only add bulk, but also alter the camera shape.
01-17-2013, 09:44 AM   #1173
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So, just dropping in to check out the state of the thread... did anyone manage to hire a spy inside Pentax R&D to get us inside reports on how things are progressing? Or are we still just blowing smoke?
01-17-2013, 09:53 AM   #1174
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
@Kunzite: Compared to, say, a FF camera? Not sure how much magic Pentax can do with a FF camera to bring down size and weight.

@Digitalis: Ah yes, but where are these lenses? The lens line up is not that great. Also it doesn't help with older lenses, and people would have to re-buy lenses. At that point, why not just switch to Sony, Nikon or Canon? I kind of like the ergonomics of recent Sonys, and they are quite light while not feeling too flimsy.

Since lenses get brighter through the adapter at least 2 advantages of FF would be lessened. Mounting FF lenses, and use them as such, and low light sensitivity would be improved by about 1 fstop. Also by going MILC, by putting in an EVF the advantage of a bigger viewfinder would also be crossed out. The Sony alpha 77 has a reasonable viewfinder from what I know. It wouldn't fully replace a FF camera, but for me that's what I'd want over a real FF camera.
Pentax has a decent number of current primes -- I own the FA 31, DA *55, FA77, D FA 100 and DA *200, all of which will cover full frame without problem. The big thing lacking is full frame zooms (24-70 f2.8; 70-200 f2.8) which wouldn't be that hard to come up with, considering that certainly they have existent lenses in their catalog that they could update with weather sealing, ring motors and quick shift to cover the main range.

The only other thing they would need would a wider prime like the FA *20 (hopefully with a little better optics and coatings).

01-17-2013, 10:01 AM   #1175
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Maybe. Maybe not. Look at the optics in that adapter. I'd say perhaps the size of an APS-C sensor, and not very thick. It could slide to the right, where the buttons are. The whole thing, as an adapter, looks big, but I doubt that bulk has to be kept, it's just to keep the adapter in the right spot, and to offer the mounting points for the lens and body. Maybe there is a 10mm thing that needs to be able to slide to the side, only enough to not be in the way, a few cm. At the moment that place might be used for electronics, and a bit of the battery. However the pentaprism can go away, mirror too. If you look at the EVF that is in the a77 it doesn't look that big, so still some room left. I mean, look at the a35/37. They are pretty small, even though they still keep a mirror and have an EVF (but no optical viewfinder of course).

Sounds doable, though I'm sure it sounds easier than it is. FF might very well be an easier task, so with the limited resources Pentax has...
01-17-2013, 10:04 AM   #1176
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We're talking about something slightly different here, Rondec... the use of additional optical elements (a focal reducer) to focus a FF imaging circle from those nice existing lenses into the space of an APSC sensor. That's what the Metabones Speedbooster does. That's what Pentax (hypothetically) could incorporate into a crop sensor MILC to magically turn it into a 'virtual FF' MILC.

01-17-2013, 10:10 AM   #1177
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Maybe. Maybe not. Look at the optics in that adapter. I'd say perhaps the size of an APS-C sensor, and not very thick. It could slide to the right, where the buttons are. The whole thing, as an adapter, looks big, but I doubt that bulk has to be kept, it's just to keep the adapter in the right spot, and to offer the mounting points for the lens and body.
I think the new optical elements would allow a thinner body than the K0-1, because the image is being refocussed closer than the current flange distance. It's an interesting idea.
01-17-2013, 10:13 AM   #1178
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Too much talk about focal reducers, IMHO. I remain skeptical to the usefulness of using glass-containing adapters. Let's await tests.

01-17-2013, 10:19 AM   #1179
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Yup. The Metabones Speed Booster is said to improve image quality (compared to using the same lens, without the Speed Booster, on an APS-C sensor) and to add about 1 fstop... so a 1.4 turns into a 1.0. A pure FF camera would do better, but you wouldn't be able to remove the adapter to get either a cropped image --> higher focal length or to use DA lenses.

I think the body still needs to stay the size of the K-01 (at least), if you want to be able to move away the optics. If not, then yes, it'd be a thinner camera (but not by much, looking at the comparison shots Metabones released showing a regular adapter and the Speed Booster).

Btw., while I do like the bigger grip and better balance the K-01 has, it does ruin the ability to do all those fun things with different adapters from lens mount to lens mount, that those NEX and mFT users can do. Introducing a new lens mount with a much shorter flange distance, and supplying the camera in turn with an PK mount adapter would appeal more to me. The adapter might include a screw drive motor... others could do similar adapters for other mounts for this new Pentax mount.

I think I have already posted a link or two to test photos. I'm sure there'll be more and more throughout tests in the near future though.

Last edited by kadajawi; 01-17-2013 at 10:24 AM.
01-17-2013, 11:53 AM   #1180
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Yup. The Metabones Speed Booster is said to improve image quality (compared to using the same lens, without the Speed Booster, on an APS-C sensor) and to add about 1 fstop... so a 1.4 turns into a 1.0. A pure FF camera would do better, but you wouldn't be able to remove the adapter to get either a cropped image --> higher focal length or to use DA lenses.
A pure FF can just switch to "crop mode" like the Nikons using an APS-C sized area of the FF sensor. So either (potential) camera can use both FF and crop modes, but obviously the FF sensor would be superior for FF. It is a cool idea, but I don't think I'd want it as a primary option. More likely I'd just buy a metabones to put on my K-01 or similar as a backup cam to the real FF and then I can still shoot virtual FF with that. If they come out with a Pentax version of the speed booster, very likely I'll get one in any case since most of my lenses are FF lenses.
01-17-2013, 06:32 PM   #1181
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
A pure FF can just switch to "crop mode" like the Nikons using an APS-C sized area of the FF sensor. So either (potential) camera can use both FF and crop modes, but obviously the FF sensor would be superior for FF. It is a cool idea, but I don't think I'd want it as a primary option. More likely I'd just buy a metabones to put on my K-01 or similar as a backup cam to the real FF and then I can still shoot virtual FF with that. If they come out with a Pentax version of the speed booster, very likely I'll get one in any case since most of my lenses are FF lenses.
There won't be a Metabones adapter for your K-01. There would not be any lenses that would be able to work with that flange distance outside of 645 glass. There might be an adapter to allow K-mount lenses to work on an NEX, M4/3, or Fuji X mount. And there might not be one.... Depends on demand.

If this adapter really works as advertised it will be a big step forward for APS-C mirror-less (& M4/3).... for people willing to spend $600 for the adapter.
01-17-2013, 06:58 PM   #1182
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QuoteOriginally posted by ihasa Quote
We're talking about something slightly different here, Rondec... the use of additional optical elements (a focal reducer) to focus a FF imaging circle from those nice existing lenses into the space of an APSC sensor. That's what the Metabones Speedbooster does. That's what Pentax (hypothetically) could incorporate into a crop sensor MILC to magically turn it into a 'virtual FF' MILC.
I understand, I just would personally rather get my theoretical full frame versus such an adapter.
01-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #1183
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There won't be a Metabones adapter for your K-01. There would not be any lenses that would be able to work with that flange distance outside of 645 glass. There might be an adapter to allow K-mount lenses to work on an NEX, M4/3, or Fuji X mount. And there might not be one.... Depends on demand.

If this adapter really works as advertised it will be a big step forward for APS-C mirror-less (& M4/3).... for people willing to spend $600 for the adapter.
Yeah, doesn't have to be a K-01, just speculating. Of course if it is going to cost me a fortune anyway, might as well get a real FF...
01-18-2013, 04:34 AM   #1184
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QuoteOriginally posted by vonBaloney Quote
if it is going to cost me a fortune anyway, might as well get a real FF
Note that the top 25 PK lens' all cost over eight hundred dollars; and how many of those are well over 1k...

Soon the world will have three full frame's (two of them being interchangeable lens') that all cost below 2k. Not a bad price at all concerning how much companies like Pentax demand for their lens' - even the rebranded ones.
01-18-2013, 08:11 AM   #1185
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OK, how about this for a concept. The more interchangeable lens cameras, the more lenses that are sold. Like the more printers that are sold, the more print cartridges that are sold.

OK, it won't be one-for-one on the lenses sold as their are other lens manufacturers. With printers, at least initially, you are tied in to the printer manufacturer's cartridge. But if you have FEWER bodies sold, your lens sales will not increase!

Regards,
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