FF Under Development

Medium FormatPro · 10-09-2012, 06:54 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Pentax has, at some point or another, called 10 of their current lenses 'full frame'

Do you mean the Pentax name label or the PK lens mount.

Because if one were to go nto the infamous B&H site, then type in the PK mount, then aso select the Full Frame option, then one comes up with a much different number (which also includes lens' from Sigma and other companies btw).

Full Frame PK lens' currently available for sale at B&H = 55 (not a typo - that's fiftyfive)

Blue · 10-09-2012, 07:02 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

It's quite simple really. A 300mm wafer will produce ~60 FF sensors. That same wafer will produce ~160 APS-C sensors. There will be more defects on the FF sensors as well. The cost of production of a FF sensor is more than 2x that of an APS-C sensor. Now it may be in time Sony will have enough of the defective sensors to sell to Pentax, but then Pentax will have to work around having lesser quality sensors. But that's assuming Nikon and Sony don't expand their FF offerings.

Production technology has improved for waffer production as wells as for both aps-c and ff sensor production.

**monochrome** · 10-09-2012, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by illdefined

Pentax can still do this and avoid being called "late" or "me too" if its small, fully weathersealed, and built like a tank (as we'd all expect) and announced early to mid next year. fingers crossed.

The build quality should be akin to an iPhone5, which just might be the best built mass-produced product ever produced by mankind ever anywhere in the history of mankind. Really.

Blue · 10-09-2012, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Maybe a weird concept: But can't people just be happy that the FF is finally "confirmed" to be under developement. I've never been interested in FF, but I'm still happy for Pentax that they are advancing and developing new products. I'm very interested in what they come up with.

It hasn't really been confirmed. This is nothing more than a rumor.

Last edited by Blue; 10-09-2012 at 07:41 AM.

**boriscleto** · 10-09-2012, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by Blue

Production technology has improved for waffer production as wells as for both aps-c and ff sensor production.

:tossed:

But demand has increased as well. Unless there is a major improvement in production demand will be greater than supply. The reason we are seeing so many new FFs this year is because the fabs destroyed by the tsunami are starting to come back online.

**boriscleto** · 10-09-2012, 07:31 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

The build quality should be akin to an iPhone5, which just might be the best built mass-produced product ever produced by mankind ever anywhere in the history of mankind. Really.

But will it fringe as well as an iPhone 5.

Blue · 10-09-2012, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

But demand has increased as well. Unless there is a major improvement in production demand will be greater than supply. The reason we are seeing so many new FFs this year is because the fabs destroyed by the tsunami are starting to come back online.

Demand is a separate issue.

Clavius · 10-09-2012, 07:43 AM

Has the source of this rumor already been checked?

The name Mr. Mikio Tanaka, who is mentioned in this latest rumor, rung a bell to me. He is mentioned in this other article:
Pentax is working on a mirrorless full frame and medium format cameras? | Photo Rumors

Isn't this just one of those rumors that come back every now and then?

Blue · 10-09-2012, 07:50 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Has the source of this rumor already been checked?

The name Mr. Mikio Tanaka, who is mentioned in this latest rumor, rung a bell to me. He is mentioned in this other article:
Pentax is working on a mirrorless full frame and medium format cameras? | Photo Rumors

Isn't this just one of those rumors that come back every now and then?

We will have to wait until Dec 19th to read the Magazine.

123jippo · 10-09-2012, 07:54 AM

If Pentax can make great crop bodies that are sold in low pricies, then why would not pentax able to do same with FF body? Just make it cheaper and better than competitors again and I will buy Pentax FF also for sure. FF lenses are not problem cos Tamron&Sigma do exist!

Kunzite · 10-09-2012, 08:20 AM

Originally posted by illdefined

- The Prime M doesn't count as a current processor? one of each Prime maybe, for 14bit RAW processing and peaking...yes code would have to be written, imagine that. you said it yourself Pentax has to do this for their next camera anyway.

- yes SAFOX is inadequate. Pentax has to fix this for their next camera anyway too because it's still inadequate for APS-C.

- as for SR, I'm afraid a 'small user sample from a certain forum' would be more relevant than just YHO. IMHO.

- those 'designs, molds and patents" produced thousands of real, working AF, FF lenses that made it to market. not theoretical.

so yes, making an FF DSLR would be "much easier" than you made it out to be.

I don't know why Pentax is exempt from having to make some 'considerable effort' to remain relevant in the marketplace like the rest of its competitors. I don't think there will be enough Pentax apologists here to keep Pentax alive by buying K-5VIIIs with SAFOX XXVIII through 2015.

Some points were already answered by Clavius, I won't repeat what he said.

I'm sorry but the few users here who would buy a "full frame" if it doesn't have SR are not enough to make for a market (no offense; it's about numbers, not quality). I firmly believe that overall, SR would make the camera more desirable, not less.
History lesson: the K100D did quite OK, but the $100 cheaper K110D failed.

"Much that once was is lost"

You can't promote a brand new $3000 "full frame" camera with second hand lenses. You cannot just re-launch lenses unsuitable for digital; and even redesigning only the barrel - if they can get away with that in some cases - counts as "effort".
Everyone is making better lenses, including 3rd-party lens makers; Pentax can't afford to be sub-par. So, new lenses with improved designs are an absolute requirement.

And please note I'm only saying it won't be easy, not that they shouldn't do it (on the contrary, I think they should). But underestimating the effort and risks, and overestimating the benefits won't help. Nor does asking for "cheaper and better", i.e. not being willing to pay what it's worth

**monochrome** · 10-09-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

But will it fringe as well as an iPhone 5

Are you saying Apple should offer iPhones in Black, White and .... Purple?

junyo · 10-09-2012, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by 123jippo

If Pentax can make great crop bodies that are sold in low pricies, then why would not pentax able to do same with FF body? Just make it cheaper and better than competitors again and I will buy Pentax FF also for sure. FF lenses are not problem cos Tamron&Sigma do exist!

Maybe, just maybe, trying to be the bargain SLR company is part of the issue. And keep in mind, we want cheaper AND better. Why not ask them to throw in a pony and a lapdance from a super model while they're at it? I'd buy that camera for sure.

And Pentax producing a camera that depends on 3rd parties for lens support is a Hoya management level genius idea.

Clavius · 10-09-2012, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by junyo

Why not ask them to throw in a pony and a lapdance from a super model while they're at it? I'd buy that camera for sure.

Oh no! A pony is absolutely not necessary.

Unsinkable II · 10-09-2012, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by illdefined

if they even want to have SR at all. they could always go the OIS route as well like they did with the 645D. members here have already stated they'd part with SR if it meant a small FF body..

Not disagreeing with much other than your tone, except the above.

SR is a space-saver and a lens-maker. It has also become a Pentax default. Much like, image quality, build quality and WR.

They make what Pentax is in the modern era, and I'd be loathe to see any facet compromised on a FF.

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10-09-2012, 06:54 AM	#106
Medium FormatPro Banned Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Charleston & Pittsburgh Photos: Albums Posts: 1,668	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Pentax has, at some point or another, called 10 of their current lenses 'full frame' Do you mean the Pentax name label or the PK lens mount. Because if one were to go nto the infamous B&H site, then type in the PK mount, then aso select the Full Frame option, then one comes up with a much different number (which also includes lens' from Sigma and other companies btw). Full Frame PK lens' currently available for sale at B&H = 55 (not a typo - that's fiftyfive)

10-09-2012, 07:02 AM	#107
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by boriscleto It's quite simple really. A 300mm wafer will produce ~60 FF sensors. That same wafer will produce ~160 APS-C sensors. There will be more defects on the FF sensors as well. The cost of production of a FF sensor is more than 2x that of an APS-C sensor. Now it may be in time Sony will have enough of the defective sensors to sell to Pentax, but then Pentax will have to work around having lesser quality sensors. But that's assuming Nikon and Sony don't expand their FF offerings. Production technology has improved for waffer production as wells as for both aps-c and ff sensor production.

10-09-2012, 07:03 AM	#108
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by illdefined Pentax can still do this and avoid being called "late" or "me too" if its small, fully weathersealed, and built like a tank (as we'd all expect) and announced early to mid next year. fingers crossed. The build quality should be akin to an iPhone5, which just might be the best built mass-produced product ever produced by mankind ever anywhere in the history of mankind. Really.

10-09-2012, 07:03 AM	#109
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Clavius Maybe a weird concept: But can't people just be happy that the FF is finally "confirmed" to be under developement. I've never been interested in FF, but I'm still happy for Pentax that they are advancing and developing new products. I'm very interested in what they come up with. It hasn't really been confirmed. This is nothing more than a rumor. Last edited by Blue; 10-09-2012 at 07:41 AM.

10-09-2012, 07:30 AM	#110
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by Blue Production technology has improved for waffer production as wells as for both aps-c and ff sensor production. :tossed: But demand has increased as well. Unless there is a major improvement in production demand will be greater than supply. The reason we are seeing so many new FFs this year is because the fabs destroyed by the tsunami are starting to come back online.

10-09-2012, 07:31 AM	#111
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by monochrome The build quality should be akin to an iPhone5, which just might be the best built mass-produced product ever produced by mankind ever anywhere in the history of mankind. Really. But will it fringe as well as an iPhone 5.

10-09-2012, 07:40 AM	#112
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by boriscleto But demand has increased as well. Unless there is a major improvement in production demand will be greater than supply. The reason we are seeing so many new FFs this year is because the fabs destroyed by the tsunami are starting to come back online. Demand is a separate issue.

10-09-2012, 07:43 AM	#113
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Has the source of this rumor already been checked? The name Mr. Mikio Tanaka, who is mentioned in this latest rumor, rung a bell to me. He is mentioned in this other article: Pentax is working on a mirrorless full frame and medium format cameras? \| Photo Rumors Isn't this just one of those rumors that come back every now and then?

10-09-2012, 07:50 AM	#114
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Clavius Has the source of this rumor already been checked? The name Mr. Mikio Tanaka, who is mentioned in this latest rumor, rung a bell to me. He is mentioned in this other article: Pentax is working on a mirrorless full frame and medium format cameras? \| Photo Rumors Isn't this just one of those rumors that come back every now and then? We will have to wait until Dec 19th to read the Magazine.

10-09-2012, 07:54 AM	#115
123jippo Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Photos: Gallery Posts: 165	If Pentax can make great crop bodies that are sold in low pricies, then why would not pentax able to do same with FF body? Just make it cheaper and better than competitors again and I will buy Pentax FF also for sure. FF lenses are not problem cos Tamron&Sigma do exist!

10-09-2012, 08:20 AM	#116
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by illdefined - The Prime M doesn't count as a current processor? one of each Prime maybe, for 14bit RAW processing and peaking...yes code would have to be written, imagine that. you said it yourself Pentax has to do this for their next camera anyway. - yes SAFOX is inadequate. Pentax has to fix this for their next camera anyway too because it's still inadequate for APS-C. - as for SR, I'm afraid a 'small user sample from a certain forum' would be more relevant than just YHO. IMHO. - those 'designs, molds and patents" produced thousands of real, working AF, FF lenses that made it to market. not theoretical. so yes, making an FF DSLR would be "much easier" than you made it out to be. I don't know why Pentax is exempt from having to make some 'considerable effort' to remain relevant in the marketplace like the rest of its competitors. I don't think there will be enough Pentax apologists here to keep Pentax alive by buying K-5VIIIs with SAFOX XXVIII through 2015. Some points were already answered by Clavius, I won't repeat what he said. I'm sorry but the few users here who would buy a "full frame" if it doesn't have SR are not enough to make for a market (no offense; it's about numbers, not quality). I firmly believe that overall, SR would make the camera more desirable, not less. History lesson: the K100D did quite OK, but the $100 cheaper K110D failed. "Much that once was is lost" You can't promote a brand new $3000 "full frame" camera with second hand lenses. You cannot just re-launch lenses unsuitable for digital; and even redesigning only the barrel - if they can get away with that in some cases - counts as "effort". Everyone is making better lenses, including 3rd-party lens makers; Pentax can't afford to be sub-par. So, new lenses with improved designs are an absolute requirement. And please note I'm only saying it won't be easy, not that they shouldn't do it (on the contrary, I think they should). But underestimating the effort and risks, and overestimating the benefits won't help. Nor does asking for "cheaper and better", i.e. not being willing to pay what it's worth

10-09-2012, 08:31 AM	#117
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by boriscleto But will it fringe as well as an iPhone 5 Are you saying Apple should offer iPhones in Black, White and .... Purple?

10-09-2012, 08:32 AM	#118
junyo Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 418	Originally posted by 123jippo If Pentax can make great crop bodies that are sold in low pricies, then why would not pentax able to do same with FF body? Just make it cheaper and better than competitors again and I will buy Pentax FF also for sure. FF lenses are not problem cos Tamron&Sigma do exist! Maybe, just maybe, trying to be the bargain SLR company is part of the issue. And keep in mind, we want cheaper AND better. Why not ask them to throw in a pony and a lapdance from a super model while they're at it? I'd buy that camera for sure. And Pentax producing a camera that depends on 3rd parties for lens support is a Hoya management level genius idea.

10-09-2012, 08:46 AM	#119
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by junyo Why not ask them to throw in a pony and a lapdance from a super model while they're at it? I'd buy that camera for sure. Oh no! A pony is absolutely not necessary.

10-09-2012, 09:19 AM	#120
Unsinkable II Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 1,352	Originally posted by illdefined if they even want to have SR at all. they could always go the OIS route as well like they did with the 645D. members here have already stated they'd part with SR if it meant a small FF body.. Not disagreeing with much other than your tone, except the above. SR is a space-saver and a lens-maker. It has also become a Pentax default. Much like, image quality, build quality and WR. They make what Pentax is in the modern era, and I'd be loathe to see any facet compromised on a FF.