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12-31-2012, 02:26 AM   #1006
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Just because you cannot see Pentax dwindle, doesn't mean they haven't. In past years I was able to look forward to K mount lenses from Voigtlander and Zeiss. Those lens lines are now dead on K mount. And this is a fact, not anecdotal evidence. It is also a fact that some of the Sigma/Tamron lenses are not even available on K mount. You can choose to ignore such facts, but don't tell me they are anecdotal evidence, because that is not what they are.

Well, let's clarify the matter then: which exact aspects of performance do you find inferior in an E-M5 vs a K-5? How can I look at the same aspects if you don't tell me what they are?
I tend to think that since Pentax is still present and selling cameras with a consistent market share, it is doing fine with its usual niche market. If your evidence for Pentax's demise is based on 3rd party lens support then Pentax should not have even existed when K-mount was introduced and before there was any 3rd party support for it.

As for MILC performance, I see PDAF doing the job faster on current dSLRs (even Pentax ones) than CDAF on current MILCs. Accuracy is fine with both. Speed to focus lock and shutter lag are two parameters I've seen dSLRs still outdo MILC. I do not know about the EM-5 as I haven't handled it yet. I do realise the technology will improve, but that would include for PDAF also. As said before, if a Pentax FF dSLR came out with a PDAF system as good as the D800, it would be as fast and responsive for just about any photographer for a very long time at least.

12-31-2012, 02:39 AM - 1 Like   #1007
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
What I can't understand; you don't care about the K-mount at all.
This is the root of the problem right there. Why should we care about a lensmount at all? Because lots of users are heavily invested in K-mount lenses, and would hate to see the K-mount go. THAT and that alone is probably the reason why people are against the mirrorless cameras, despite the obvious advantages. All the people that think nothing of switching entire systems have already left Pentax, only the ones that don't want, or can't afford, to switch because they've got a ton of lenses, are left. So yes, most of the Pentaxians left shudder with the thought of the K-mount disappearing, for personal reasons. It's Pentax's own userbase that's preventing them from going forward.

So, the K-mount is currently the only thing that ties users to Pentax. Because most other advantages of owning a Pentax kit are gone or surpassed by the other brands. One of these days, some other manufacturer, like Sony, is going to make an AF adapter so K-mount lenses work on their upcoming prosumer level EVIL, and kill the only thing that makes Pentax survive.

Pentax needs to add something that brings them new users. Not just try to win over the exact same users by repeating what little is of their unique features.
12-31-2012, 02:39 AM   #1008
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
if a Pentax FF dSLR came out with a PDAF system as good as the D800, it would be as fast and responsive for just about any photographer for a very long time at least.
I'd like Pentax to do better than that.

Information about the Nikon D800 left sensor autofocus problem
12-31-2012, 02:45 AM   #1009
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Ash, Pentax managed to stay in business while being fund starved, their staff decimated, and being prepared to be sold. All the momentum they barely gained with the K10's launch was lost, once Hoya had their way (OTOH this year they managed to do quite well). We should not overlook the context, because it shows there is still much potential in the K-mount, once they start trying.
So we have both a good potential, and a market 4 times as large as the MILC one, and still growing. Should they really give up on that?

Pentax Ricoh's statement about doubling the sales were based on their current systems, by the way.

Clavius, about that "It's Pentax's own userbase that's preventing them from going forward."; why can't they move forward with the K-mount? Well, obviously they can and (maybe not obviously in this moment) they will.

lytrytyr, the D800 AF problem seems to be an overblown calibration issue.


Last edited by Kunzite; 12-31-2012 at 02:53 AM.
12-31-2012, 03:05 AM   #1010
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Has anyone else noticed that Pentax despite its awards and all that stuff is still on a down trend?
12-31-2012, 03:10 AM   #1011
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Data, please.
12-31-2012, 03:13 AM   #1012
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Agreed Kunzite. I've looked at the D800 focusing issues closely and they are both recognised by Nikon officially and being rectified by a mass recall of the cameras. By the Full frame shots and thoughts thread, the D800 seems to be doing the job fine.

As for Pentax struggling - I recognise its history with Hoya. That was a dark time not do much to do with Pentax's vision or any perceived lack thereof.

Why should we care for the K-mount at all? We shouldn't - but I believe Pentax should, by virtue of its legacy history and relative lack of advantages from ditching it (or even developing a new high end camera mount). I must have a problem understanding the rationale for the apparent advantages in developing a new mount (other than the thought of selling more lenses) - the K-mount can't support a modernised MILC?

12-31-2012, 03:34 AM - 1 Like   #1013
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Backward compatibility with vintage lenses and in-camera SR are Pentax' important current strengths. These were also the reasons that I (finally) 'crossgraded' to Pentax DSLR (of course along with the competitiveness of other features). And I believe I'm not the only one.
12-31-2012, 04:30 AM   #1014
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mehlsack Quote
Has anyone else noticed that Pentax despite its awards and all that stuff is still on a down trend?
No. I don't know about worldwide sales, but in Japan, Pentax is right behind Sony with 5 percent of the market. That is higher than it has been in the past (lowest I remember was 4 percent) and despite the fact that Pentax really didn't come out with any new cameras this last year.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/general-photography-industry/209916-2012-...les-japan.html
12-31-2012, 04:30 AM   #1015
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Why should we care for the K-mount at all? We shouldn't - but I believe Pentax should, by virtue of its legacy history and relative lack of advantages from ditching it (or even developing a new high end camera mount). I must have a problem understanding the rationale for the apparent advantages in developing a new mount (other than the thought of selling more lenses) - the K-mount can't support a modernised MILC?
The reason for using a new mount is for Pentax to be present in a new market which they cannot enter with K-mount. A K-mount MILC will have very little advantage over a K-mount DSLR and it will hardly make anyone outside of existing Pentax users consider it. It's more likely someone outside Pentax user base will get a Pentax Q than a K-mount MILC.

For users looking for a new cameras, K-mount will look less sophisticated than most other mounts, as Pentax still use noisy screw-drive on many lenses, and as most Pentax K-mount lenses are large and slow compared to MILC lenses. For many users a Pentax K-mount MILC would be like comparing a 10 year old mobile phone with a brand new smartphone, compared to other MILC systems.

Fortunately for Pentax, most MILC systems don't have a big selection on glass, so users looking for a new system might still find K-mount have an advantage. But in a few years when MILC had matured and these systems have wider range of glass, it will probably be much more difficult for Pentax to compete.

After all, Pentax DSLR have always been about supporting existing K-mount users, and it should continue being so. But if Pentax want to increase user base much more than they can do today, they need to be present in other markets too.
12-31-2012, 04:37 AM   #1016
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Why not do like nikon?

I like the idea, although the 1 lenses are nothing fantastic yet, the ability to use DX/FX lenses with working AF is really cool. To have FF nikon and the ability to use the same lenses on the 1" sensor wich is a nice feature.

Last edited by the swede; 12-31-2012 at 04:43 AM.
12-31-2012, 04:55 AM   #1017
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QuoteOriginally posted by the swede Quote
Why not dom like nikon?

I like the idea, although the 1 lenses are nothing fantastic yet, the ability to use DX/FX lenses with working AF is really cool. To have FF nikon and the ability to use the same lenses on the 1" sensor with is a nice feature.
Most MILC manufactures has done the same thing, but Sony and Nikon only support AF for lenses with AF-motor. And it probably be the same for Pentax. Canon has a clear advantage as they changed mount for AF some 30 years ago, so they have full AF support with all SLR lenses on MILC.

Sony made a SLT adapter so they have full PDAF support on MILC, which make AF as fast as on DSLR. I think this even work for screw-drive lenses.

Last edited by Fogel70; 12-31-2012 at 05:48 AM.
12-31-2012, 04:57 AM - 1 Like   #1018
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I read the statements people write here and there are two themes, both of which I believe are wrong if Pentax is to thrive. The first theme is that Pentax needs to out muscle Nikon/Canon in the full frame market. This is clearly wrong. If Pentax just released their version of the D800, priced it within a couple of hundred dollars of the Nikon, there would be a number of current Pentax users who would buy it, but overall, it would have little draw. The second theme is that Pentax needs to emulate Olympus, cut ties to the past, and release a new mount with MILC technology. This, of course, would require blazing a new trail, as current Pentax users would not tend to be drawn to such a camera, particularly if it required a 200 dollar adapter in order to use legacy k mount lenses (and didn't auto focus screw driven lenses). However, it has been said multiple times in this thread that MILCs are the wave of the future and if Pentax doesn't get on that train they will fail.

The reality is that neither plan is very good and they are mutually incompatible. Pentax doesn't have the resources to create a new MILC mount and create the lenses needed for such a mount and at the same time work on a full frame camera and the requisite lenses such a camera would require. 4 to 5 new lenses a year has been their maximum in the past, over all of their different cameras.

What Pentax needs to do, is figure out a way to be Pentax. It is about creating a compelling camera/lens package that will draw people in to the brand. You don't do this by copying other companies, you do it by figuring out how you can be different and stand out. Give people a quality level they don't get from Canon/Nikon. Continue and improve on your history of unsurpassed ergonomics. And then be willing to advertise.

In a sense, the k mount isn't that important, but I would hate to see Pentax just copying others, when their history is so much more than that.
12-31-2012, 05:39 AM   #1019
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Good post Rondec.
I earlier made the point of creating a D800 competitor, but by that I didn't mean to suggest Pentax should emulate the product; Pentax wouldn't do this anyway. But there are clearly some fundamental things the D800 does right, and it's in these that Pentax are challenged to address in their next flagship camera. AF, P-TTL, smaller focus points as we've discussed are important practical aspects needing perfecting. The Pentax FF will have to have selling points like SR and WR to remain competitive, which I can't see Pentax abandoning from the camera development.
12-31-2012, 05:47 AM   #1020
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The reason for using a new mount is for Pentax to be present in a new market which they cannot enter with K-mount. A K-mount MILC will have very little advantage over a K-mount DSLR and it will hardly make anyone outside of existing Pentax users consider it. It's more likely someone outside Pentax user base will get a Pentax Q than a K-mount MILC.

For users looking for a new cameras, K-mount will look less sophisticated than most other mounts, as Pentax still use noisy screw-drive on many lenses, and as most Pentax K-mount lenses are large and slow compared to MILC lenses. For many users a Pentax K-mount MILC would be like comparing a 10 year old mobile phone with a brand new smartphone, compared to other MILC systems.

Fortunately for Pentax, most MILC systems don't have a big selection on glass, so users looking for a new system might still find K-mount have an advantage. But in a few years when MILC had matured and these systems have wider range of glass, it will probably be much more difficult for Pentax to compete.

After all, Pentax DSLR have always been about supporting existing K-mount users, and it should continue being so. But if Pentax want to increase user base much more than they can do today, they need to be present in other markets too.
I take your points here. There is mention of K-mount limitations. AF speed and awkward lenses specific lenses. With quality primes like the Ltd series, clearly there will be a significant focus throw on the lenses. Any shorter and it would require a smaller mount. So a smaller mount that is FF compatible on a MILC is suggested then? It seems to me that compromises are being proposed just to address limitations that can be worked around with further technological advances on the existing mount.
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