FF Under Development

Kunzite · 01-02-2013, 05:29 AM

I'm sorry, but people ecstatic about NEX, RX100, RX1 would already bought them. If they didn't, well, they aren't really ecstatic, don't you think?

What is your alternative, to make evolutionary copies to other manufacturer's products?

Let's count the bad pixels on that OM-D, after some 5 years.

**Rondec** · 01-02-2013, 07:55 AM

I don't see why the replacement of, say, the kr couldn't be a mirrorless camera along the lines of the K-01 with some improvements and an optional EVF. Certainly they could hit a price of 450 to 500 dollars with such a camera and I think it would be a decent seller. At the same time, I don't think there is so much benefit to losing the k mount in such a camera.

Consumers want to be able to mount lenses on their cameras without adapters. As time goes by, certainly MILC technology will filter into the upper end cameras, but there is no doubt that it hasn't a whole lot to this point. Even a camera like the K30 will handle better than 90 percent of MILCs, with anything but a small prime on it.

northcoastgreg · 01-02-2013, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor

As companies figure out that pros want to use these cameras, you will start seeing faster zooms and larger bodies - like Panasonic did with the GH3

The MILC companies are facing the same problems Pentax is when competing against Canon and Nikon professional gear: the professionals have already invested thousands of dollars in their Canikon gear. They have to be given a very compelling reason to switch. Never mind that, outside video, the GH3 is light years away from the Nikon D3s or D4 or the Canon 1dx. Never mind that you lose more than 2 stops of DOF with the panny. Even if the cameras and lenses were equal (per implausible) in all respect, that is not a compelling reason to dump thousands of dollars worth of gear. There has to be something very compelling about the mirrorless system to cause such a traumatic change. What could that possibly be?

**Rondec** · 01-02-2013, 02:37 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

I'm sorry, but people ecstatic about NEX, RX100, RX1 would already bought them. If they didn't, well, they aren't really ecstatic, don't you think?

What is your alternative, to make evolutionary copies to other manufacturer's products?

Let's count the bad pixels on that OM-D, after some 5 years.

Well, I doubt that many OM-Ds will be around in 5 years. Most people change cameras every three to four years, just like they do computers.

Fogel70 · 01-02-2013, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by northcoastgreg

Even if the cameras and lenses were equal (per implausible) in all respect, that is not a compelling reason to dump thousands of dollars worth of gear. There has to be something very compelling about the mirrorless system to cause such a traumatic change. What could that possibly be?

If pros start using MILC they will most likely keep their DSLR gear. But they might find that MILC gives enough unique advantages over DSLR that they want to use dual systems.

In the longer run, some pros might start using MILC gear from the start, and never find any reason for using DSLR.

Zygonyx · 01-02-2013, 02:50 PM

Exactly, and Pana GH5 is a "must" in this respect.

But let's speak FF here

travera · 01-02-2013, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by leonsroar

Pentax Japan is currently conducting touch & try tour in Osaka (last week), Tokyo (6th/7th), and Nagoya (next week).
At Tokyo session on 7th, Mr. Mikio Tanaka, a professional photographer mentioned that Pentax is currently developing FF.
In addition, after the seminar with Mr. Tanaka, several pentaxian over there have confirmed with Pentax reps that what Mr. Tanaka talked about is nothing inappropriate and/or confidential.
Per those reps, they also have just been notified from top management about that right before the seminar in Tokyo (morning on 6th).
The other pentaxian at the seminar with his D800E was regretfully told by a rep that he could wait for a more while.

Additional note, those pentaxians were surprised at II's AF in dark.
Some with D800 is saying it is better than D800 while the other also with D800 is saying D800 is still better than that.

As no mention about ETA at this time, I will be getting K-5IIs anyway then would add the FF if it turned out true...
Hope to have financial struggles.

Actually FF not not doesn't matter too much, all that I conern are image quality and AF performance.

NSX167 · 01-02-2013, 07:31 PM

I want a mirrorless FF with K-mount

**Ash** · 01-02-2013, 08:14 PM

Originally posted by gazonk

a new 645D as the first new camera I want from Pentax

Yeah, I wouldn't mind one of those too - would sound like a fantastic camera - but I don't think I would put that kind of money towards a depreciating tool for a hobby.
A dMF might not depreciate in value or relevance the way a FF or APS-C would, but it does have a lifespan that I'm sure I wouldn't get my money's worth from.
A FF would be a happy medium (for me) between getting high IQ/pleasure from shooting and longevity/value for money.

mecrox · 01-03-2013, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

If pros start using MILC they will most likely keep their DSLR gear. But they might find that MILC gives enough unique advantages over DSLR that they want to use dual systems.

In the longer run, some pros might start using MILC gear from the start, and never find any reason for using DSLR.

There's a thread on another forum among Nikon users about this. Same arguments - to rock the F-mount would sunder the very foundations of the universe but not to do it would be inviting the fate of Nokia, etc, etc. The feeling there is that Nikon would first produce an APS-C mirrorless. I think it all rather depends on how the Sony NEX and the Canon M series do (being APS-C, the Canon M seems targeted towards users of NEX and Samsung cams). If the Sony and Canon lines, particularly, do well then Nikon might feel they have to cover themselves. Too early to say how the Canon M series is doing, though it is or was at #9 on the BCN rankings which is pretty high. Anyway, if Canon, Nikon and Sony all pour investment and new tech into APS-C mirrorless, with new mounts in each case and adapters for the full-size older mount, then it will be difficult for Pentax to stand aside. And if any of that ever came to pass, then FF MILCs from more than Sony would become inevitable. I guess 2013 will show us the likelihood of that any time soon.

Kunzite · 01-03-2013, 06:20 AM

Originally posted by NSX167

I want a mirrorless FF with K-mount

One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood!

mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market?

IchabodCrane · 01-03-2013, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood!

mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market?

If it were only that simple! I think the operative assumption would have to be "if Canon and Nikon stop making APS-C sized DSLRs" instead of just "going MILC". Big difference and the only way those two abandon that market is if it dies on its own. Doubt that happens in the next 10 years if not far more.

Winder · 01-03-2013, 06:33 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood!

mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market?

By everyone else you mean everyone but Canon and Nikon? The two largest players in the industry. The "big part" of this market has already been captured. Pentax is about to get squeezed out even more if it does not produce a $2,000 full frame that can compete. Sony has been trying for several years to break through in this market. Yes, there is room to grow in the DSLR market, but not nearly as much as their is in MILC market.

**Digitalis** · 01-03-2013, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

I voted for a new 645D as the first new camera I want from Pentax

Same here, as a studio photographer I work with the current 645D and there are some improvements I think pentax could make to make it more competitive.Upping the resolution on the sensor - around 60~70Mp would be nice especially if the sensor uses more current up-to date technology with full 16 bit RAW and High DR - and a optional pixel-binned ISO 6400~256000 @ 35Mp would be another innovative step - making the camera able to attract available light photographers. The addition of the new 90mm f/2.8 ED SR lens is a brilliant move, I would like to see updated versions of the FA45-85mm f/4.5 and an improved FA 80-160mm f/4.5 - add SR and SDM focusing and WR and pentax will be more appealing to hand-held outdoor shooters. And if they updated the current FA 400mm f/5.6 ED in a similar fashion Pentax might also attract more nature photographers - Pentax being one of the few manufacturers in Medium format offering decent telephoto focal lengths.

Kunzite · 01-03-2013, 06:47 AM

Winder:
No, I'm actually referring to Canon and Nikon. It was a joke (well, I'm not good at making jokes in languages others than Romanian), but I believe that, let's say if after decades the DSLR market will decline (being replaced with other types of cameras), Pentax has a good potential at being the last leaving the DSLR arena (while of course following the current market trends), because they know how to make highly desirable, low volume cameras.
However, that's so far in the future I'd guess problems like inter-stellar travel or taming black holes as energy sources will be solved first

About the current situation, well, there is more room to grow in a market 4-5 times larger, where they don't have to start from scratch.

01-03-2013, 06:40 AM	#1124
Digitalis Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Melbourne, Victoria Photos: Gallery Posts: 11,694	Originally posted by gazonk I voted for a new 645D as the first new camera I want from Pentax Same here, as a studio photographer I work with the current 645D and there are some improvements I think pentax could make to make it more competitive.Upping the resolution on the sensor - around 60~70Mp would be nice especially if the sensor uses more current up-to date technology with full 16 bit RAW and High DR - and a optional pixel-binned ISO 6400~256000 @ 35Mp would be another innovative step - making the camera able to attract available light photographers. The addition of the new 90mm f/2.8 ED SR lens is a brilliant move, I would like to see updated versions of the FA45-85mm f/4.5 and an improved FA 80-160mm f/4.5 - add SR and SDM focusing and WR and pentax will be more appealing to hand-held outdoor shooters. And if they updated the current FA 400mm f/5.6 ED in a similar fashion Pentax might also attract more nature photographers - Pentax being one of the few manufacturers in Medium format offering decent telephoto focal lengths. Last edited by Digitalis; 01-03-2013 at 06:55 AM.

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01-02-2013, 05:29 AM	#1111
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I'm sorry, but people ecstatic about NEX, RX100, RX1 would already bought them. If they didn't, well, they aren't really ecstatic, don't you think? What is your alternative, to make evolutionary copies to other manufacturer's products? Let's count the bad pixels on that OM-D, after some 5 years.

01-02-2013, 07:55 AM	#1112
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	I don't see why the replacement of, say, the kr couldn't be a mirrorless camera along the lines of the K-01 with some improvements and an optional EVF. Certainly they could hit a price of 450 to 500 dollars with such a camera and I think it would be a decent seller. At the same time, I don't think there is so much benefit to losing the k mount in such a camera. Consumers want to be able to mount lenses on their cameras without adapters. As time goes by, certainly MILC technology will filter into the upper end cameras, but there is no doubt that it hasn't a whole lot to this point. Even a camera like the K30 will handle better than 90 percent of MILCs, with anything but a small prime on it.

01-02-2013, 02:30 PM	#1113
northcoastgreg Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Northern Michigan Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,172	Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor As companies figure out that pros want to use these cameras, you will start seeing faster zooms and larger bodies - like Panasonic did with the GH3 The MILC companies are facing the same problems Pentax is when competing against Canon and Nikon professional gear: the professionals have already invested thousands of dollars in their Canikon gear. They have to be given a very compelling reason to switch. Never mind that, outside video, the GH3 is light years away from the Nikon D3s or D4 or the Canon 1dx. Never mind that you lose more than 2 stops of DOF with the panny. Even if the cameras and lenses were equal (per implausible) in all respect, that is not a compelling reason to dump thousands of dollars worth of gear. There has to be something very compelling about the mirrorless system to cause such a traumatic change. What could that possibly be?

01-02-2013, 02:37 PM	#1114
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,650	Originally posted by Kunzite I'm sorry, but people ecstatic about NEX, RX100, RX1 would already bought them. If they didn't, well, they aren't really ecstatic, don't you think? What is your alternative, to make evolutionary copies to other manufacturer's products? Let's count the bad pixels on that OM-D, after some 5 years. Well, I doubt that many OM-Ds will be around in 5 years. Most people change cameras every three to four years, just like they do computers.

01-02-2013, 02:45 PM	#1115
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by northcoastgreg Even if the cameras and lenses were equal (per implausible) in all respect, that is not a compelling reason to dump thousands of dollars worth of gear. There has to be something very compelling about the mirrorless system to cause such a traumatic change. What could that possibly be? If pros start using MILC they will most likely keep their DSLR gear. But they might find that MILC gives enough unique advantages over DSLR that they want to use dual systems. In the longer run, some pros might start using MILC gear from the start, and never find any reason for using DSLR.

01-02-2013, 02:50 PM	#1116
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,032	Exactly, and Pana GH5 is a "must" in this respect. But let's speak FF here

01-02-2013, 04:28 PM	#1117
travera Forum Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 89	Originally posted by leonsroar Pentax Japan is currently conducting touch & try tour in Osaka (last week), Tokyo (6th/7th), and Nagoya (next week). At Tokyo session on 7th, Mr. Mikio Tanaka, a professional photographer mentioned that Pentax is currently developing FF. In addition, after the seminar with Mr. Tanaka, several pentaxian over there have confirmed with Pentax reps that what Mr. Tanaka talked about is nothing inappropriate and/or confidential. Per those reps, they also have just been notified from top management about that right before the seminar in Tokyo (morning on 6th). The other pentaxian at the seminar with his D800E was regretfully told by a rep that he could wait for a more while. Additional note, those pentaxians were surprised at II's AF in dark. Some with D800 is saying it is better than D800 while the other also with D800 is saying D800 is still better than that. As no mention about ETA at this time, I will be getting K-5IIs anyway then would add the FF if it turned out true... Hope to have financial struggles. Actually FF not not doesn't matter too much, all that I conern are image quality and AF performance.

01-02-2013, 07:31 PM	#1118
NSX167 Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Bay Area Posts: 55	I want a mirrorless FF with K-mount

01-02-2013, 08:14 PM	#1119
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by gazonk a new 645D as the first new camera I want from Pentax Yeah, I wouldn't mind one of those too - would sound like a fantastic camera - but I don't think I would put that kind of money towards a depreciating tool for a hobby. A dMF might not depreciate in value or relevance the way a FF or APS-C would, but it does have a lifespan that I'm sure I wouldn't get my money's worth from. A FF would be a happy medium (for me) between getting high IQ/pleasure from shooting and longevity/value for money.

01-03-2013, 06:14 AM	#1120
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by Fogel70 If pros start using MILC they will most likely keep their DSLR gear. But they might find that MILC gives enough unique advantages over DSLR that they want to use dual systems. In the longer run, some pros might start using MILC gear from the start, and never find any reason for using DSLR. There's a thread on another forum among Nikon users about this. Same arguments - to rock the F-mount would sunder the very foundations of the universe but not to do it would be inviting the fate of Nokia, etc, etc. The feeling there is that Nikon would first produce an APS-C mirrorless. I think it all rather depends on how the Sony NEX and the Canon M series do (being APS-C, the Canon M seems targeted towards users of NEX and Samsung cams). If the Sony and Canon lines, particularly, do well then Nikon might feel they have to cover themselves. Too early to say how the Canon M series is doing, though it is or was at #9 on the BCN rankings which is pretty high. Anyway, if Canon, Nikon and Sony all pour investment and new tech into APS-C mirrorless, with new mounts in each case and adapters for the full-size older mount, then it will be difficult for Pentax to stand aside. And if any of that ever came to pass, then FF MILCs from more than Sony would become inevitable. I guess 2013 will show us the likelihood of that any time soon.

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01-03-2013, 06:20 AM	#1121
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by NSX167 I want a mirrorless FF with K-mount One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood! mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market?

01-03-2013, 06:30 AM	#1122
IchabodCrane Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,728	Originally posted by Kunzite One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood! mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market? If it were only that simple! I think the operative assumption would have to be "if Canon and Nikon stop making APS-C sized DSLRs" instead of just "going MILC". Big difference and the only way those two abandon that market is if it dies on its own. Doubt that happens in the next 10 years if not far more.

01-03-2013, 06:33 AM	#1123
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Kunzite One Pentax FF DSLR permanently stuck in Live View mode, understood! mecrox, if everyone else is going MILC maybe Pentax should stay with the DSLRs and capture a big part of this larger market? By everyone else you mean everyone but Canon and Nikon? The two largest players in the industry. The "big part" of this market has already been captured. Pentax is about to get squeezed out even more if it does not produce a $2,000 full frame that can compete. Sony has been trying for several years to break through in this market. Yes, there is room to grow in the DSLR market, but not nearly as much as their is in MILC market.

01-03-2013, 06:47 AM	#1125
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Winder: No, I'm actually referring to Canon and Nikon. It was a joke (well, I'm not good at making jokes in languages others than Romanian), but I believe that, let's say if after decades the DSLR market will decline (being replaced with other types of cameras), Pentax has a good potential at being the last leaving the DSLR arena (while of course following the current market trends), because they know how to make highly desirable, low volume cameras. However, that's so far in the future I'd guess problems like inter-stellar travel or taming black holes as energy sources will be solved first About the current situation, well, there is more room to grow in a market 4-5 times larger, where they don't have to start from scratch.