Pentax Confirms Full-Frame Plans at CP+ Inteview

mecrox · 02-04-2013, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

I would really find that hard to believe. The money involved might have been comparatively small, but no-one in a serious business spends such an amount without having done a proper due diligence and having a plan for developing their acquisition.

Lol, they do it every day of the week with precious little of either. They probably did it five times a day before the crash of 2007/2008 which was partly the result of such behaviour. The Dotcom crash a few years earlier most definitely was. Just open the papers. Naturally, I doubt any of this applies to Ricoh but having enough of a stake to feel some pain if you lose it still applies.

Kunzite · 02-04-2013, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

The CEO of Canon Imaging for a start. Actually he didn't say that, not precisely, but that's how his remarks seem to have been interpreted elsewhere. Anything similar from Nikon would allow the view to settle that it is game over for the APS-C DSLR even if it isn't. The format will slowly migrate to mirrorless using new lenses with a shorter registration distance, if you believe Mr Canon (or the implications behind his recent remarks). Of course that doesn't have to be true but perception is all - hence marketing and reassurance become especially important to present APS-C DSLR-makers and their customers. They won't want folks holding off or going to a competitor's mirrorless instead.

Indeed, he didn't said that.
It is the top level APS-C which could become full frame, however APS-C itself is not going to disappear anytime soon; the FF price decline is too slow, and people aren't that willing to spend lots of money for something they don't need.
It will be interesting to see how the MILCs evolves, so far they can't endanger DSLRs. I'd guess the DSLR market will continue to grow, in the next years.

Originally posted by RobA_Oz

I would really find that hard to believe. The money involved might have been comparatively small, but no-one in a serious business spends such an amount without having done a proper due diligence and having a plan for developing their acquisition.

Of course; Ricoh has a plan. Examples of companies completely unrelated to Ricoh won't convince me otherwise

Originally posted by ogl

Progress is innovation for me, I never said about frozen progress at all.

I quoted you saying precisely that...

thibs · 02-04-2013, 05:47 AM

Originally posted by fast50

Honestly, a decent non-glare, high brightness LCD screen in a horizontal position is better than a washed out, back-to-front image on a ground.

No. Not at all. But what do I know ?

ogl · 02-04-2013, 06:34 AM

There is very good example.

LEICA. The smallest photo company in the world. Approx. ~ 1000 employees.

For many years LEICA was unprofitable. Even German government supported LEICA for some time.

At last...They produced M8. Then M9. Skimming the cream from M8/M9, they made S-system from zero. Absolutely new.
Made 8 new lenses, 3 lenses has f2.5 (Pentax offers just 3 new lenses for 645D).

And offered new FF cameras now and X2.

LEICA is risking... OF course, but...LEICA is profitable. Pentax is just THINKING about FF...

I'm in perplexity...

Kunzite · 02-04-2013, 06:47 AM

Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion.

ogl · 02-04-2013, 06:52 AM

No brave, smart and fast decisions = no success

gazonk · 02-04-2013, 06:55 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion.

WHAT, are you implying that this is not the Pentaxbytian Church??

gazonk · 02-04-2013, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by ogl

No brave, smart and fast decisions = no success

I feel confident that we'll see more "brave" products from Pentax. I'll put both the 645D and the Q in that category.

Allison · 02-04-2013, 06:57 AM

Well, I will be more pleased when I see a working prototype, but this is a step in the right direction. Personally, I want my kit to have both FF and APS-C camera, but I want only one system so I have been hoping for a FF Pentax for some time. For those who want to stay with APS-C try to keep in mind that having a FF camera out there is good for business. Pentax is not a big enough force in the DSLR market to command that the market is focused on APS-C. Canikon is calling the shots here and they have said FF is the future. Sony followed. If Pentax wants to stay relevant, they will have to offer FF. A FF camera would be a positive move for every Pentax owner, whether they plan on buying it or not.

Kunzite · 02-04-2013, 07:12 AM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by gazonk

WHAT, are you implying that this is not the Pentaxbytian Church??

If anything this is the Church of Complaining, or the Order of Impending Doom.

**Rondec** · 02-04-2013, 07:23 AM

Whether Pentax has said for sure that they will release full frame, I think that is the next step. Basically they have to read the tea leaves and see that upper end APS-C is being squeezed by lower end full frame. The chance of releasing an APS-C camera for 1500 dollars and having a big seller is done. APS-C cameras are going to top out around 1100 dollars.

On the other hand, there is still quite a bit to be made in the full frame market, particularly if Pentax comes out with a new line of DFA lenses that are step above the old FA line. I would bet on a full frame camera, targeted right between the D600 and D800 cameras for 2500 dollars. On the other hand, I think the lenses will be really expensive.

**RuiC** · 02-04-2013, 07:50 AM

Better late than never! Let them work with confidence and peace so that we can see a super *** FF body! I believe!

RuiC

**Fontan** · 02-04-2013, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion.

I believe in Leica, and nothing else.

**monochrome** · 02-04-2013, 08:14 AM - **1 Like**

Here is the essential conundrum for Pentax (doesn't matter who owns Pentax).

The USA market, whether or not largest on earth any more, is at least the marginal market for high-margin products. Everything depends upon whether the USA is a relevant market for Pentax now and in the future. Without an effective marketing and distribution channel in the USA Pentax has a very tough challenge achieving volume at high-margin prices. We've seen that Pentax doesn't desire volume at low-margin prices. Canon and Nikon dominate the store trade - box and boutique.

Pentax can have all the products we want, complete, ready to manufacture - but until PRIAC gets its act together and PRI comnmits long-term, repetitive investment into market development PRIAC is going nowhere. Without PRIAC high-margin products aren't likely to achieve launch volume globally.

Without PRIAC there won't be - there can't be - any Pentax FF camera (and lenses, and attachments, and accessories).

Until just 6 months ago Ricoh's business plan was essentially, lay off employees of IKON Office Systems (restructure) globally to recover fromt the disastrous 2008 acquisition of that company. Pentax cost $100MM +/-, not a small sum in the middle of a losing period, but not a backbreaker, either. However, the add-on investments necessary to rebuild Pentax (not the product stuff, which they have - the distribution channel), especially in PRIAC, was a deal-breaker. When you are retrenching in one division expanding in another just isn't going to happen - the Finance Guys won't allow it, and money always has the deciding seat at the table. Always.

Pentax is telling us they have the desire, they have a plan, they have the technology, they have the prototypes, they have the business relationships with third-party suppliers --- they have the Product!!

But they don't have permission of the Finance Guys yet. And they won't get that until PRIAC is fixed. Good luck on that, Mr. Malcolm.

Ogl - you don't know your business as well as you seem to believe. Its all about money. Always has been, always is and ever shall it always be.

Kunzite · 02-04-2013, 09:11 AM

USA is actually on the 3rd place regarding the DSLR market in units, after Europe and Asia; and in terms of average DSLR value, it's also the third, after Japan and Asia (yet above Europe). In terms of market share, in 2012 it had about ~20% in units and ~17.76% in value of the total DSLR shipments (Europe had ~38.7% in units and ~29.07% in value). It is important, but not that important, IMO

But, of course, Pentax must solve PRIAC problems.

02-04-2013, 08:14 AM - 1 Like	#164
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Here is the essential conundrum for Pentax (doesn't matter who owns Pentax). The USA market, whether or not largest on earth any more, is at least the marginal market for high-margin products. Everything depends upon whether the USA is a relevant market for Pentax now and in the future. Without an effective marketing and distribution channel in the USA Pentax has a very tough challenge achieving volume at high-margin prices. We've seen that Pentax doesn't desire volume at low-margin prices. Canon and Nikon dominate the store trade - box and boutique. Pentax can have all the products we want, complete, ready to manufacture - but until PRIAC gets its act together and PRI comnmits long-term, repetitive investment into market development PRIAC is going nowhere. Without PRIAC high-margin products aren't likely to achieve launch volume globally. Without PRIAC there won't be - there can't be - any Pentax FF camera (and lenses, and attachments, and accessories). Until just 6 months ago Ricoh's business plan was essentially, lay off employees of IKON Office Systems (restructure) globally to recover fromt the disastrous 2008 acquisition of that company. Pentax cost $100MM +/-, not a small sum in the middle of a losing period, but not a backbreaker, either. However, the add-on investments necessary to rebuild Pentax (not the product stuff, which they have - the distribution channel), especially in PRIAC, was a deal-breaker. When you are retrenching in one division expanding in another just isn't going to happen - the Finance Guys won't allow it, and money always has the deciding seat at the table. Always. Pentax is telling us they have the desire, they have a plan, they have the technology, they have the prototypes, they have the business relationships with third-party suppliers --- they have the Product!! But they don't have permission of the Finance Guys yet. And they won't get that until PRIAC is fixed. Good luck on that, Mr. Malcolm. Ogl - you don't know your business as well as you seem to believe. Its all about money. Always has been, always is and ever shall it always be. Last edited by monochrome; 02-04-2013 at 08:20 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Pentax Full Frame	dand33	Welcomes and Introductions	5	10-16-2012 07:50 AM
K30, K5n, K3 and maybe full-frame at Photokina...	frankfanrui	Pentax News and Rumors	638	09-06-2012 07:08 AM
Pentax To Announce the K-3 Full Frame DSLR At Photokina	Danny Delcambre	Pentax News and Rumors	662	09-04-2012 05:05 PM
Tokina plans 16-28mm F2.8 for full-frame. Is that a singht?	i83N	Pentax News and Rumors	20	03-03-2010 02:19 AM
Any plans for full frame soon?	FrancisK7	Photographic Technique	2	09-22-2008 07:15 PM

02-04-2013, 05:22 AM	#151
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by RobA_Oz I would really find that hard to believe. The money involved might have been comparatively small, but no-one in a serious business spends such an amount without having done a proper due diligence and having a plan for developing their acquisition. Lol, they do it every day of the week with precious little of either. They probably did it five times a day before the crash of 2007/2008 which was partly the result of such behaviour. The Dotcom crash a few years earlier most definitely was. Just open the papers. Naturally, I doubt any of this applies to Ricoh but having enough of a stake to feel some pain if you lose it still applies.

02-04-2013, 05:35 AM	#152
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by mecrox The CEO of Canon Imaging for a start. Actually he didn't say that, not precisely, but that's how his remarks seem to have been interpreted elsewhere. Anything similar from Nikon would allow the view to settle that it is game over for the APS-C DSLR even if it isn't. The format will slowly migrate to mirrorless using new lenses with a shorter registration distance, if you believe Mr Canon (or the implications behind his recent remarks). Of course that doesn't have to be true but perception is all - hence marketing and reassurance become especially important to present APS-C DSLR-makers and their customers. They won't want folks holding off or going to a competitor's mirrorless instead. Indeed, he didn't said that. It is the top level APS-C which could become full frame, however APS-C itself is not going to disappear anytime soon; the FF price decline is too slow, and people aren't that willing to spend lots of money for something they don't need. It will be interesting to see how the MILCs evolves, so far they can't endanger DSLRs. I'd guess the DSLR market will continue to grow, in the next years. Originally posted by RobA_Oz I would really find that hard to believe. The money involved might have been comparatively small, but no-one in a serious business spends such an amount without having done a proper due diligence and having a plan for developing their acquisition. Of course; Ricoh has a plan. Examples of companies completely unrelated to Ricoh won't convince me otherwise Originally posted by ogl Progress is innovation for me, I never said about frozen progress at all. I quoted you saying precisely that...

02-04-2013, 05:47 AM	#153
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by fast50 Honestly, a decent non-glare, high brightness LCD screen in a horizontal position is better than a washed out, back-to-front image on a ground. No. Not at all. But what do I know ?

02-04-2013, 06:34 AM	#154
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	There is very good example. LEICA. The smallest photo company in the world. Approx. ~ 1000 employees. For many years LEICA was unprofitable. Even German government supported LEICA for some time. At last...They produced M8. Then M9. Skimming the cream from M8/M9, they made S-system from zero. Absolutely new. Made 8 new lenses, 3 lenses has f2.5 (Pentax offers just 3 new lenses for 645D). And offered new FF cameras now and X2. LEICA is risking... OF course, but...LEICA is profitable. Pentax is just THINKING about FF... I'm in perplexity...

02-04-2013, 06:47 AM	#155
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion.

02-04-2013, 06:52 AM	#156
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	No brave, smart and fast decisions = no success

02-04-2013, 06:55 AM	#157
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Kunzite Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion. WHAT, are you implying that this is not the Pentaxbytian Church??

02-04-2013, 06:57 AM	#158
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by ogl No brave, smart and fast decisions = no success I feel confident that we'll see more "brave" products from Pentax. I'll put both the 645D and the Q in that category.

02-04-2013, 06:57 AM	#159
Allison Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 667	Well, I will be more pleased when I see a working prototype, but this is a step in the right direction. Personally, I want my kit to have both FF and APS-C camera, but I want only one system so I have been hoping for a FF Pentax for some time. For those who want to stay with APS-C try to keep in mind that having a FF camera out there is good for business. Pentax is not a big enough force in the DSLR market to command that the market is focused on APS-C. Canikon is calling the shots here and they have said FF is the future. Sony followed. If Pentax wants to stay relevant, they will have to offer FF. A FF camera would be a positive move for every Pentax owner, whether they plan on buying it or not.

02-04-2013, 07:12 AM - 2 Likes	#160
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by gazonk WHAT, are you implying that this is not the Pentaxbytian Church?? If anything this is the Church of Complaining, or the Order of Impending Doom.

02-04-2013, 07:23 AM	#161
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Whether Pentax has said for sure that they will release full frame, I think that is the next step. Basically they have to read the tea leaves and see that upper end APS-C is being squeezed by lower end full frame. The chance of releasing an APS-C camera for 1500 dollars and having a big seller is done. APS-C cameras are going to top out around 1100 dollars. On the other hand, there is still quite a bit to be made in the full frame market, particularly if Pentax comes out with a new line of DFA lenses that are step above the old FA line. I would bet on a full frame camera, targeted right between the D600 and D800 cameras for 2500 dollars. On the other hand, I think the lenses will be really expensive.

02-04-2013, 07:50 AM	#162
RuiC Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Lisboa - The best destination in Europe Posts: 633	Better late than never! Let them work with confidence and peace so that we can see a super *** FF body! I believe! RuiC

02-04-2013, 07:54 AM	#163
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	Originally posted by Kunzite Leica is able to sell at much higher prices, because Leica is not a brand, but a religion. I believe in Leica, and nothing else.

02-04-2013, 09:11 AM	#165
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	USA is actually on the 3rd place regarding the DSLR market in units, after Europe and Asia; and in terms of average DSLR value, it's also the third, after Japan and Asia (yet above Europe). In terms of market share, in 2012 it had about ~20% in units and ~17.76% in value of the total DSLR shipments (Europe had ~38.7% in units and ~29.07% in value). It is important, but not that important, IMO But, of course, Pentax must solve PRIAC problems.