Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-05-2013, 08:46 AM   #256
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,512
QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
Is there a substantial difference in pixel density and resolution of 36mm FF sensor or 16+ MP APS-C sized sensor from you K5/K30/K01? I think not.
16+ MP APS-C is roughly 2 times smaller than FF. Is FA31 resolving fine on K5/K30/K01?
Good point! Any K-5 IIs with a FA31 who can tell us if it outresolves the AA-free sensor at least in the center?

QuoteQuote:
18-55 Kit is noticeably dull on this sensor, although it looks sharp on my old 6MP istD.
Yes, it looks noticeably dull on my K-5 as well. The DA16-45 is much better in the center area (but not in corner/sides, especially when it decides to "wobble" too much and gets slightly decentered ).

02-05-2013, 08:46 AM   #257
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lewiston, NY
Posts: 104
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't care about FF at all. The problems of Pentax are laying in another directions....
+1. For that matter +1,000. When leaders of this forum claim to speak for members of this forum and imply its members are demanding FF, that is untrue.

As a devotee to the concept of continuous improvement, leapfrog jumps are seldom a good idea. They should continue to 'Pareto' the line's technical, marketing, and sales barriers, and starting at the top, address them. I doubt if lack of a full frame system is anywhere near the top 5 on that list.

The example of the Honda Civic comes to mind. Some of you might remember the 1970s something version - a rust bucket glorified motorcycle. But one step at a time Honda knocked off the Civic's issues to become one of the most highly demanded cars available today.

Many were disappointed when the K-5 II was 'big' Pentax announcement. I was overjoyed. It told me that the Ricoh influence was one that supported continuous improvement. They took the top problems with the K-5 and they made significant improvements. More of the same please Pentax.
02-05-2013, 08:49 AM   #258
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lewiston, NY
Posts: 104
QuoteOriginally posted by pentaxinator Quote
I actually preffer the way the buton is now, but maybe that is just me
Mine too.
02-05-2013, 08:54 AM   #259
Pentaxian
gazonk's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Oslo area, Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,512
QuoteOriginally posted by sandilands Quote
Many were disappointed when the K-5 II was 'big' Pentax announcement. I was overjoyed. It told me that the Ricoh influence was one that supported continuous improvement. They took the top problems with the K-5 and they made significant improvements. More of the same please Pentax.
What you say makes a lot of sense, but keep in mind that K-7/K-5 share a lot of DNA with the 645D, and the 645D II, the "KF-1" (FF camera) and the (still very probable, I think) K-3 will also share DNA. And if the three amigos will get a "digital makeover", what's not to like about that also for APS-C users?

They will need a 24-70ish and a 70-200ish zoom, though, and at least the former will be pretty uninteresting for APS-C users. Other new full frame-covering lenses (24mm f/2, anyone?) may be very interesting for APS-C users as well, so I'd say mainly the standard zoom(s) for FF will represent a diversion that will steal resources from continued APS-C and 645 lens development.

02-05-2013, 09:02 AM   #260
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,821
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
The resolution of 24 MP APS-C and 24 MP FF cameras are different.
For example, NEX-7 - 3400 LW/PH, D3X - 4000 LW/PH (max.)

The resolution difference between 36 MP FF camera and 16 MP APS-C camera is huge.
Where did you get those numbers?

I've seen numbers saying a D5200 can achieve 2500 lw/ph while a D600 can achieve 2800 lw/ph using the same testing criteria. That's about a 10% improvement for more than double the price. I'd be interested at looking at any numbers that say different.

Using the same test criteria as the other two tests (D5200 and D600)

QuoteQuote:

For the D3X
Our laboratory resolution chart revealed sharp, distinct line patterns down to about 2,300 lines per picture height horizontally, and about 2,200 lines in the vertical direction. Extinction didn't occur until past 3,600(!) lines, but lines began to merge at about 2,800 lines horizontally and vertically. We weren't able to extract much more resolution by processing the D3X's NEF files using dcraw (or ACR), perhaps another 100 lines in the horizontal direction, although there were fewer artifacts than the JPEGs near the resolution limits. (The D3x's default sharpening for JPEGs is really too high, leaves halos around high-contrast objects. Shoot with the in-camera sharpening set to 0 or 1 to avoid these.) Use these numbers to compare with other cameras of similar resolution, or use them to see just what higher resolution can mean in terms of potential detail.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/D3X/D3XIMAGING.HTM

2200-2900 is a long way from the the 4000 you are claiming.

In fact you can achieve 2250 lw/ph on a K-30. Functionally you can get the same resolution on a K-30 as on a D3X using the same test procedure and facility.
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/pentax-k30/pentax-k30A5.HTM

Last edited by normhead; 02-05-2013 at 10:46 AM.
02-05-2013, 09:10 AM   #261
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,423
QuoteOriginally posted by sandilands Quote
+1. For that matter +1,000. When leaders of this forum claim to speak for members of this forum and imply its members are demanding FF, that is untrue.

As a devotee to the concept of continuous improvement, leapfrog jumps are seldom a good idea. They should continue to 'Pareto' the line's technical, marketing, and sales barriers, and starting at the top, address them. I doubt if lack of a full frame system is anywhere near the top 5 on that list.

The example of the Honda Civic comes to mind. Some of you might remember the 1970s something version - a rust bucket glorified motorcycle. But one step at a time Honda knocked off the Civic's issues to become one of the most highly demanded cars available today.

Many were disappointed when the K-5 II was 'big' Pentax announcement. I was overjoyed. It told me that the Ricoh influence was one that supported continuous improvement. They took the top problems with the K-5 and they made significant improvements. More of the same please Pentax.
The key for Pentax under Ricoh will be to establish a corporate ethos (such as the Pareto Principle you espouse here) and internalize it, then publicize, promote, deliver and stick to their path until Pentax is associated with that ethos in the minds of media, reviewers, distributors and above all customers.

Honda is a great example. What was learned from the Civic has been extended to the Accord and the Odyssey, as well (less so to the other lines). Subaru, Apple and Google come to mind. Whosoever the 20% are, it will cost Ricoh some money, some time, some courage and some patience to develop a Pentax identity and products this way. Those have not been Pentax's strong character elements in recent years.
02-05-2013, 09:30 AM   #262
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lewiston, NY
Posts: 104
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The issue still remains... the current standard for guys like me is the Nikon D800 and the Nikon 14-24mm f/2.8 AFS, Nikon 24-70mm f/2.8 AFS and Nikon 70-200mm VR II. I don't own it, but if I felt confident I needed to upgrade, that's where I'd go, with appropriate primes filling in where needed.

It's a package. I can't even begin contemplating moving to a Pentax FF body until I see a comparable set of lenses. Who knows, maybe the currently available lenses will stack up...but Pentax doesn't really have any Digital Glass versions of these lenses for FF. RIght now my upgrade path is dependant on deciding it would be worth my while to spend a lot more money, While I'd jump at the chance to use my existing lenses on more than one format...

My Studio instructor once said , "find the lens you like and buy the body that goes with it." Out of the gate, without covering the 14-200 zoom range with Digital Glass, I'm not sure a an FF is a starter around here. If they're thinking they're going to sell me a $3000 camera with a kit quality lens hoping for better to come along later.....

How embarrassing would it be to be carting around a Pentax FF with a 20 year old 35-80 on the front of it? They can sell me the FF glass before they come out with the camera. I'm not so sure it would work the other way around. I still listen to my Photography Studio teacher, 50 years later.

The only piece of Pentax Glass I'd buy specifically to make use of existing lenses would be the 31 ltd. and maybe the 77. And I'd want to rent and test before I bought. 31 is a long way from the 14 available in high quality glass on Nikon.

It makes me wonder, what glass does everyone have that you think would perform well on an FF camera?
I had to check the signature line under your post to make sure I hadn't posted it. Alas, my version would not have been so eloquent. My instructor's words were, "The camera is just a light proof box that holds film - first, find that lens that brings your vision to life."
02-05-2013, 09:39 AM   #263
Veteran Member
mrNewt's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON, RH
Posts: 2,170
Personally, I don't want new lens ... the missing aperture ring annoys me; and most of the new Pentax lenses are coming without one.
I prefer to use old lenses rather than new stuff.
Now if they add the ring ... I'm all for new stuff.

But, to get things started, I have the lenses that works for me ... just need the body .

...

As to improving steadily ... this takes time ... is normal ... so why not introduce an FF body already and keep on improving on it?
Market will eventually move that way and small sensors will probably, slowly, disappear inside point and shoot cameras (or maybe altogether).
Why not get on it as early as possible so you can improve as fast as possible and have a place on the market rather than wait until nobody buys smaller sensors and all want FF?


Last edited by mrNewt; 02-05-2013 at 09:46 AM.
02-05-2013, 09:43 AM   #264
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Lewiston, NY
Posts: 104
QuoteOriginally posted by intjonmiller Quote
Pentax is where Apple was in the mid-1990s. Several changes in leadership, capable but rarely truly exceptional or innovative products, pathetic marketing and PR, and losing their user base at an alarming rate. Their full frame offering needs to compensate for their Newton, er, Q (among other missteps) in as dramatic a way as the original iMac did. A "me too" full frame camera isn't going to cut it. A "me too, but travel size!" full frame camera isn't going to be enough, either. Slow sync speed, no tethering, and poor distribution? And heaven help them if it can't focus in incandescent light.

Blow away the competition. Do what Pentax always does well (size, weather sealing, image quality, price point, etc) and then be as far ahead of the competition in at least one category as the D800 was in resolution. They have to do at least one thing AMAZINGLY well to get the market attention they need. For the original iMac it had the tremendously novel appearance. Other than reliably compact, that's not a good idea here. The iMac was also easier to set up and use than any other computer previously made. (The iMac name comes from Internet Mac, a reference to the fact that you could unbox it and be online in under 10 minutes.)

I suggest Pentax lead the market in an affordable high speed and/or high resolution video mode. 120fps at 1080p MINIMUM. No less than 2K at 60fps, with native 24, 25 and 30 fps modes and professional audio connectors and uncompressed output. Do 4K at at least 24 fps and under $3,000 and REALLY get people's attention.

If they do this right they could actually become again the innovative company they once were, with the kind of cash flow they've only dreamed of.

Do another "me too" camera when they finally get around to going full frame and much of the remaining user base will disappear. Then it's just a matter of time until they're gone. They can only milk the loyal user base for so many generations when they have very real expenses even to tag along years behind other manufacturers.
I think I mostly agree with you, although I'm not crazy about 29 minute video cameras in an DSLR package.

The Apple comparison is interesting, however Apple is about to go swirling down a sinkhole. It had one asset - an arrogant despotic visionary genius. That is gone,
02-05-2013, 09:44 AM   #265
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,821
QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
Personally, I don't want new lens ... the missing aperture ring annoys me; and most of the new Pentax lenses are coming without one.
I prefer to use old lenses rather than new stuff.
Now if they add the ring ... I'm all for new stuff.

But, to get things started, I have the lenses that works for me ... just need the body .
You are so far ahead of the game.
02-05-2013, 09:46 AM   #266
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Manila
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,190
18 pages already... so who's into the probability of a full-frame camera coming out this year?

Or will it be at the next Photokina?
02-05-2013, 09:48 AM   #267
Veteran Member
mrNewt's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON, RH
Posts: 2,170
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You are so far ahead of the game.
Not sure if sarcastic ...

QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
18 pages already... so who's into the probability of a full-frame camera coming out this year?

Or will it be at the next Photokina?
I guess for now is still just talk ... and lots of hope .
02-05-2013, 09:52 AM   #268
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,821
QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
18 pages already... so who's into the probability of a full-frame camera coming out this year?

Or will it be at the next Photokina?
QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
Not sure if sarcastic ...



I guess for now is still just talk ... and lots of hope .
It's just a concept. Security in the knowledge if I ever wanted an FF camera.. I could buy a Pentax, and start with a nice set of FF lenses. ( My Tamron 90, DA 35, possibly my DA*60250) are all FF capable. The Tamron 90 is very highly rated on other FF systems. Honestly, unless a pile of money came my way unexpectedly, I wouldn't even buy it. But I'd like to know it's there.
02-05-2013, 09:52 AM   #269
Pentaxian




Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Madison, Wis., USA
Posts: 1,510
QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Due to RoHS regulations the electronics of old lenses cannot be made anymore. Optical glass is exempt from the RoHS regulations, but manufacturing processes have changed a lot since FA* times. So, these won't be brought back in their original form, not even the optics.
Optical glass is exempt for a limited amount of time. The EU after a couple of tries has still not come up with a proposal for optical glass that anyone can use for developing products - the existing rules could all change in 2014 or 2016. Who would plan on using leaded glass in product designs if those products can become illegal with a few months' notice?

For background, please see: RoHS recast: implications for optical materials
02-05-2013, 09:54 AM   #270
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,423
QuoteOriginally posted by sandilands Quote
The Apple comparison is interesting, however Apple is about to go swirling down a sinkhole. It had one asset - an arrogant despotic visionary genius. That is gone,
I'd love to lay a bet on that statement and come back in three, five, seven and ten years.
  • Television
  • Business Communication
  • Photography
  • Living Space Management
Are all pre-planned
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
change, cp, ff, full-frame, interview, pentax, photokina, question, time, video
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax Full Frame dand33 Welcomes and Introductions 5 10-16-2012 07:50 AM
K30, K5n, K3 and maybe full-frame at Photokina... frankfanrui Pentax News and Rumors 638 09-06-2012 07:08 AM
Pentax To Announce the K-3 Full Frame DSLR At Photokina Danny Delcambre Pentax News and Rumors 662 09-04-2012 05:05 PM
Tokina plans 16-28mm F2.8 for full-frame. Is that a singht? i83N Pentax News and Rumors 20 03-03-2010 02:19 AM
Any plans for full frame soon? FrancisK7 Photographic Technique 2 09-22-2008 07:15 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:02 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top