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02-06-2013, 08:44 PM   #346
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It seems to me it's WRONG translation.

They say about innovation and no MUST word here.
Do you speak any Japanese? Because I do, and I fail to see how you came to this interpretation.


Last edited by Cannikin; 02-06-2013 at 08:53 PM.
02-06-2013, 09:02 PM   #347
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The massive data stream from a FF sensor changes every single algorithm and every single component downstream from the sensor - bus, buffer, heat sinks, etc.
I like FF at 24MP. I'd like 36MP more, but it's not required.


QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Then you need high-end appurtenances such as a large prism viewfinder, bigger shutter assembly, bigger mirror, bigger IBSR assembly, all the plugs and card slots and other outputs to match a premium camera -
True

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
everything must be faster to justify the higher price.
Not true now for Canon or Nikon (how much slower is the average FF in fps than the average APS-C?)
02-06-2013, 09:51 PM   #348
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I've written about the Finance Guys before on this thread. We're not talking about $1,000,000 or $500,000 of product development. This is a multi-tens of millions of dollars decision to be spent over many, many years, with no turning back once started.
Although your analysis goes beyond usual rants and fan exhaust, I also think your rational approach is so rational that it becomes meaningless at some stage. Because it is exactly that — breaching the common grounds, being more optimistic, having great products and taking calculated risk — that make ANY business successful. In your world, there is no such thing. But that — openness and bit of a smile — is exactly what makes a difference, what inspires each one us to happily get up in the morning and do some great work, and not to curl up as a foetus and cry upon impeding doom.

Pentax Ricoh — despite your overdone analysis — will succeed only if they inspire imagination is its userbase, and more. Thus being same as CaNiSony isn't enough for them, and as far as I can see from the interviews with Pentax Ricoh execs, adding something extra is exactly where they are heading to.


QuoteQuote:
They're just not ready yet. Shame, but a fact.
You do not know that. And that is a fact.
02-06-2013, 09:59 PM   #349
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Here's how I see it: Pentax saying that "it is being presented" means that they have completed a design prototype (which may or may not be operational) and that said prototype can be internally presented. The development team may use this prototype as a basis for further development, but it is unlikely that there are any significant specifications finalized.

There's no doubt that Pentax is working on full frame. I only hope that it will be a high-quality product that showcases what Pentax is best at.

--DragonLord

02-06-2013, 10:36 PM   #350
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Interesting discussion. There is also one thing that should not be ignored IMO. In the video Pentax representative speaks openly about "contradictions" about FF camera inside the company. I don't know Japanese companies but usually companies don't do this unless they have solved them. For me this is a good sign and tells me that management has now same direction (which is all that matters in the end). So, IMHO, the Pentax FF camera is inevitable.
02-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #351
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They must go compact FF, weather shield, and pancake prime. Otherwise, there are Canon and Nikon out there to beat them up. Sony FF NEX is also a challenge.
02-06-2013, 11:28 PM   #352
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It seems to me it's WRONG translation.

They say about innovation and no MUST word here.
I speak Japanese, and I tend to agree. The nuance here is more like, "we better do it."

However, having said that, and considering how reserved they tend to be in situations like this, I took it as a done deal. They won't back off now.

Last edited by Fontan; 02-07-2013 at 04:14 AM.
02-07-2013, 12:22 AM   #353
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
Do you speak any Japanese? Because I do, and I fail to see how you came to this interpretation.
I graduated university - oriental department.

It's hard to translate this phrase to English with 100% accuracy. Into Russian - too.


My version


"I dare say that it's urgent need"


Last edited by ogl; 02-07-2013 at 12:48 AM.
02-07-2013, 12:56 AM   #354
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I'm afraid that Ricoh could sell Pentax again in several years.
I don't think this is likely. Ricoh mainly bought Pentax because their copier business is declining. In this day and age, many companies simply don't copy or print documents anymore; it's increasingly digital. The future of digital cameras is still bright though.
02-07-2013, 01:17 AM   #355
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Whether or not Pentax can have success with a new model -- and success is all they need, not a record in attracting users from other brands -- depends on how much value it offers for the money. You have the same problem with an APS-C camera. You could argue that a K10D or K-5 (II) were/are not fit for attracting new customers. Both models have attracted users from other brands, though.
You've got a very good point there. All iterations of the K5 are best-in-class. However, slightly different situation though, Pentax was already established in the APSC market. FF is completely new for them and they still have to conquer their piece of the market there.

Nobody is saying they have to kill the competition. It's impossibly and above all, we don't want it. We want more options, not less, right? But if their first FF camera is going to be iffy, then there won't be a second version of it.


QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I personally don't like the Pentax that dabbles with K-01 style markets.
+1

Me neither. One of the biggest advantages of going mirrorless is the smaller registry distance, and the possibility for EVF. K-01 style cameras don't exploit those. It's a camera with less features, instead of other features.



QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...and I don't like the ergonomics of existing mirrorless cameras.
+1

Me neither, they're all too small.



QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
If they could offer a mirorrless camera that handles like a convential DSLR (i.e., proper grip, big LCD displays, tons of controls) and a hybrid viewfinder (optical, or electronic, or both) than I'd be very interested.
You just described my dream camera. Currently, there are no such mirrorless cameras with SLR-style ergonomics and features around. Not in FF and not even in APSC.

Although I don't see how they would put that optional optical viewfinder in a mirrorless camera though. Wouldn't that have to be something rangefinder-style then? But clearly, I'm not an engineer.
02-07-2013, 01:46 AM   #356
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If Pentax release a FF DSLR body it has to have a unique selling point to overcome the inherent brand name advantage of Canon, Sony and Nikon. These could include:

1). Price
2). Design
3). Features

Or ideally combinations of the three, although lots of 3 generally means lots of 1, and 2 often means 1 but not always.

- If Pentax took a K-5 body and was able to fit in a FF sensor and SR but kept the core specifications the same then we'd have a 1 and 2 camera
- If Pentax enlarged the body but kept broadly the same specs as the K-5 then we'd have a 1 camera
and so on

Personally I think the only viable route to go is with a FF camera that is as small as possible and has a retro design that harks back to Pentax classics - something akin to the OM-D. Pentax could go more mass market and try to make a 6D or D600 but that's too much playing in Canikons territory. Pentax needs to except and then exploit it's niche status.
02-07-2013, 02:30 AM   #357
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
I don't think this is likely. Ricoh mainly bought Pentax because their copier business is declining. In this day and age, many companies simply don't copy or print documents anymore; it's increasingly digital. The future of digital cameras is still bright though.
I'd like to be WRONG.
02-07-2013, 02:55 AM   #358
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I'm afraid that Ricoh could sell Pentax again in several years.
That's completely baseless, there is not even one indication it could happen.
02-07-2013, 03:00 AM   #359
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Even if they make a truly excellent FF DSLR, like the D800, and price it competitively it will still be fighting an up-hill battle. It's already too late. They'll have to create a whole new range of lenses. Some Pentaxians would be very happy with their cameras, but would they really invest in the new lenses when they have shelves full of FAs and older lenses? Pentax wouldn't just be competing with other brands, but also their own legacy. They would still be a long way behind Canon and Nikon in terms of range of products and I can't see that there would be many reasons for customers from other brands to switch to Pentax.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You just described my dream camera. Currently, there are no such mirrorless cameras with SLR-style ergonomics and features around. Not in FF and not even in APSC.
This is exactly what I hope they're working on too. It will take 5 years to build up a full system (judging by MFT). Pentax needs to imagine what the ideal high-end camera should look like 5 years from now and move towards that. I personally think it will be something like a flattened K-5 with a full frame sensor and a new mount. Of course, it and its lenses would have to have very good video capabilities too, unlike current K-mount lenses. This kind of camera would attract new customers and Pentaxians alike. Users would also have more incentive/need to build up a set of new lenses as well. Adapters would make it a good platform for K-mount lenses too.

They can't compete with the big brands by copying them. They have to have envision the next step and overtake them.
02-07-2013, 03:53 AM   #360
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Even if they make a truly excellent FF DSLR, like the D800, and price it competitively it will still be fighting an up-hill battle.
Indeed.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
It's already too late.
Far from it.

QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
It will take 5 years to build up a full system (judging by MFT). Pentax needs to imagine what the ideal high-end camera should look like 5 years from now and move towards that. I personally think it will be something like a flattened K-5 with a full frame sensor and a new mount. Of course, it and its lenses would have to have very good video capabilities too, unlike current K-mount lenses. This kind of camera would attract new customers and Pentaxians alike. Users would also have more incentive/need to build up a set of new lenses as well. Adapters would make it a good platform for K-mount lenses too.

They can't compete with the big brands by copying them. They have to have envision the next step and overtake them.
Why a new mount? That would make things much more difficult; is it because of video-compatible lenses? I think a solution can be built around the K-mount, e.g. electronic-controlled aperture lenses, with the camera supporting both types. I'm not sure how the lenses could be backwards compatible (new firmware? the reintroduction of aperture rings?). This is a problem for Nikon, as well.

IMO at this moment what's important is to make a foothold into the FF territory - which means a profitable first FF camera, with few most desirable lenses - and build on that. It's not necessary to outdo Canikon, in fact such an ambitious goal could make them fail on the market.
It is necessary to stop "bleeding" advanced users to other systems; and to make the current users long waiting for a higher-end camera to buy. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think a Pentax FF will generate a "K10D" effect, with demand stronger than could be anticipated by looking at market data.
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