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02-07-2013, 04:27 AM   #361
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This is such a gloom and doom thread, it is crazy. The reality is that Canon and Nikon have released full frame cameras that have lower specifications, or reused items -- sticking the D7000 focus module in the D600. Pentax did the same thing when they stuck the K7 focus module in the 645D. In fact, I think they have already worked out exactly what they would like to do, they just need a green light to go ahead.

I really think that Canon and Nikon releasing the 6D and D600 is a good thing in the sense that Pentax doesn't have to have the highest specified camera out there in order to beat them and Pentax doesn't need to have a professional service organization in place in order to release a camera priced just above these.

Whether Pentax releases a full frame camera or no, they still need to work on the same things -- a replacement for SDM, a better auto focus module with more points and better tracking, and better implementation of video. Pentax/Ricoh has to realize that APS-C SLR development is pretty much a dead end, with models making far less money than in the past. Either they will need to go mirrorless or, add full frame to the mix, or maybe both, but just to continue to release K5 sequels for lower and lower prices seems like a recipe for disaster.

02-07-2013, 05:02 AM   #362
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The Pentax FF is not going to be a me-too camera. Producing a debut camera in the presence of those already from other brands doesn't automatically make it so. Pentax works on developing products that are quite different to the competition in many ways (ergonomics, user interface, logical menu item locations, etc) and I see this FF development to follow in this path. I see that it will bring in interest from those using other brands, and even those amateurs who have the financial gusto to invest in it as their first SLR, as the D600 had demonstrated.
02-07-2013, 05:09 AM   #363
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
This is such a gloom and doom thread, it is crazy
Bullseye.....just my thought as well.

If potential new Pentax customers land on this site, they'll run to Canon or Nikon faster than light. Even I got so scared reading all the gloom and doom that I listed all my gear at the local auction site. (I'm now in the process of deleting my auction.)

QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I can't see that there would be many reasons for customers from other brands to switch to Pentax
I guess nobody initially saw any reason for customers to switch from Pentax to other brands either. But they did. And with a new awesome FF camera and lenses, they can switch back again.
02-07-2013, 05:43 AM   #364
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Me neither. One of the biggest advantages of going mirrorless is the smaller registry distance, and the possibility for EVF. K-01 style cameras don't exploit those. It's a camera with less features, instead of other features.
Permit me to respectfully disagree here.

Keeping the flange distance and the K-mount is key for Pentax not loosing their existing customer base: if they were to abandon the K-mount, we might as well buy into another system, why stick with Pentax? An adaptor, sure, might be possible but would still (at least, to me) be interpreted as a kludgy abandoning of the K-mount, an additional complication for when changing lenses, and a clear message of a "system change".

Small, EVF and interchangeable lenses, Pentax already did that, and did that well, with the Q.

The K-01 (and its successors, I would hope) is a logical member of the K-family. I think it has its place completely, next to the K5ii (and the successors hereof) either as a "second camera" to the K5, with the same great IQ but less "bells and whistles", or as an entry into the range.

Now, as to Pentax continuing on FF, I honestly do not care a whole lot. APS-C and the Q do largely what I need: I am reasonably happy with what the different Pentax bodies offer, and I'm very happy with what my K-mount lenses offer.

02-07-2013, 05:46 AM   #365
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+1 to this.

QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
Bullseye.....just my thought as well.


I guess nobody initially saw any reason for customers to switch from Pentax to other brands either. But they did. And with a new awesome FF camera and lenses, they can switch back again.
It is just amazing how this kind news can turn upside down in few seconds and again. I have no doubts that next pentax digital FF will be unique...it is already one and only when it's born. And that it's pentax, it means they will have some cool things in it for sure. Maybe even too cool for some. It is also good that Pentax get's in this field after things has evolved, like prize/quality, more options on this level of products. And just to look few recent developments from pentax It' is not hard to sum em up like next new model can be really good. Developing safox(last one) possibly something like prime M prime II combined for prime III or prime II+?!?(just a thought, not a fact), improving with ISO quality. Good experience with bigger format, like 645. All this has some good things. + Pentax really good sense of ergonomics.

Oh boy, it will be fiasco for sure just my 2 cent.

02-07-2013, 06:06 AM   #366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The Pentax FF is not going to be a me-too camera. Producing a debut camera in the presence of those already from other brands doesn't automatically make it so. Pentax works on developing products that are quite different to the competition in many ways (ergonomics, user interface, logical menu item locations, etc) and I see this FF development to follow in this path. I see that it will bring in interest from those using other brands, and even those amateurs who have the financial gusto to invest in it as their first SLR, as the D600 had demonstrated.
Different ergonomics, user interface and item locations makes an FF DSLR not me-too? I surely hope that's not going to be all that will set Pentax aside from the rest. If that would be enough to ensure growth for the FF DSLR, then those features would also be enough to ensure growth right now with APSC too.

I'm sorry, whilst e.g. Canon most certainly does have inferior ergonomics and inferior user interface, fact remains that those tiny, almost irrelevant, features do not influence the photographic end result in the slightest bit. What Canon user is going to switch to Pentax and give up Canon's superior AF, support, enormous lens lineup, peer 2 peer support, excellent third party support and availability just for Pentax's better button placement?!

Pentax used to have some very unique and good features going for them. They were the only ones with IBIS. They had the best bang for the buck ratio. Their lenses were super affordable due to no internal stabilisation or motors. And they used to be the ones with the best backwards compatibility.

They need a new set of such strong unique features. That way they could easily survive and grow, even without going FF.
02-07-2013, 06:47 AM   #367
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Nope. It doesn't have anything to do with a me too mentality, just as Hyundai and now recently Great Wall are two pretty successful car manufacturers who excelled at making popular small passenger and SUV models that offer more than just another car to choose from the bevy of existing car companies. There is no particular reason any Canon or Nikon user would want to switch to Pentax. It means possibly selling all their existing gear and reinvesting into another one. Few photographers, pro and amateur, would want to do that, but many ex-Pentaxians and dual system owners have not waited for Pentax to release their FF model to have one, yet affirmed that when one does become available, they'd jump on the opportunity to use the FA lenses they kept just to come back to using Pentax on a FF system. If the FF model is good enough, it will entice other users with the lesser size and weight the FA lens + FF camera option can offer. Just having a presence will be enough for it to speak for (and market) itself - but good marketing helps as well.
02-07-2013, 06:56 AM   #368
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I think a Pentax FF will generate a "K10D" effect, with demand stronger than could be anticipated by looking at market data.
I do agree that a Pentax-made full frame DSLR would be very nice if that's the way they decide to go. I would probably buy one if it were in the same price range as the D600 and relatively compact. I could use my FA24-90, FA100-300 and FA35 on it. I just think it would have much wider appeal if it were smaller and lighter. I would have thought that the K-01 experience would have driven home the message that compactness is a major factor in choosing one system over another.

02-07-2013, 07:39 AM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I would have thought that the K-01 experience would have driven home the message that compactness is a major factor in choosing one system over another.
Once a camera+lens combo isn't pocketable anymore, it has to be carried around in a bag. Size doesn't really matter anymore by then.

Moreover, it's personal. I find the K5 to be too small for my hands, the K20D had really good ergonomics. Handling my NEX is royal PITA, but I use it for it's better viewfinder.
02-07-2013, 07:41 AM - 4 Likes   #370
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After all the guys who have sold there gear on this forum and bought some other brand, and all the posts from guys from other brands who have come and said they were moving to Pentax and saw it as an upgrade, I can't believe there would be people so naive to think that if Pentax makes a slightly different camera people won't buy it. Probably people who aren't Pentax users now. Why wouldn't they. People buy what suits them. They don't buy what people who think they know what people will buy say they will or won't.

Make something a little different and people will buy it.

If it's a 30 MP ff, people will buy it because they want more than 24 but less than 36. If they make it 40 MP then people will buy it because they want more than 36 MP.

If they have great video, people will buy it fo that.
If it has no video people will buy it for that.

It might be current Pentax users, it might be new users. If it's a camera aimed at a niche...people who favour that niche will buy it.

And really... all Pentax needs to do is sell cameras. Like the K-01. Distance photography with telephotos has always been such a large part of what I do it's not for me. But I realize for some it's the perfect camera and they love it.

So I hope Pentax brings out a full frame and it adds to the brand. Will it be for me? I won't know until I see the specs. Is it doomed to failure because it's a Pentax.... come on, I'm laughing.

I'm one of those people who is on the fence. I can't decide if it's going to be worth whatever they ask for it until I hold it in my hands. But I'm not so arrogant to assume that my opinion means there won't be enough people who do decide to make the camera to be a market. There are people coming new to photography and moving up to FFs every day...There is a market there to sell too. People saying Canon and Nikon have the market all locked up don't know anything about market history. Apple was once between 1.5% and 2% market share. Windows guys wrote them off as dead every 15 minutes. The Big 3 Automakers used to have a lock on US and Canadian auto sales. RIM used to be a big player in the cell phone market.

You folks can go on and on about what Pentax can and can't do. But you really have to realize it's all hot air. You have no idea what Pentax has up their sleeves, you have no idea what their finance department is thinking, you have no idea how much support Pentax has within Ricoh. What you have is a bunch of speculation based on your experiences with other situations and your assumption that all situations are the same as the one you worked for.

I bought my first Apple computer in 94 when. 3 years later Steve Jobs came back and turned the company around. I have heard more "losers" arrogantly proclaim they "knew" what was going to happen to Apple than I can remember. And I say "losers" as a shortcut, because really they were arrogant, noisy obnoxious people who went around talking like they were some kind of experts, based on a line of thinking that was repeated over and over again until they all believed it. Well I have to say, not one of them has phoned me up and said "Norm, you know that conversation we had about why you shouldn't buy Apple product because it doesn't have a future, well i was wrong."

So I don't know what will happen with the full frame thing. Not because i'm ignorant, but because I see there are a whole lot of ways this could play out, and there are as many positive ones as negative ones. This isn't about me and my needs. Pentax can succeed in the FF market whether or not I buy one. Often it's the ones with the definitive answers that are ignorant. Not the ones that look at the possibilities and understand why they can't make an informed guess.

But all these nay sayers on here are sounding an awful lot like the PC geeks of the past, like the Big 3 auto makers. If Pentax brings out an FF, it will sell. Maybe not to you, but to somebody.

So I'm going with Pentax is going to release an FF in 2014, and that line will continue into the future. I'm guessing it will not be an automatic upgrade for any or every APS-c user. I'm guessing that for the most part it will be people using other systems who will find the Pentax more to their liking, for some reason known to them and not anticipated by us, because we haven't seen the camera. I'm guessing that just like the Nikon and Canon world, 95% of Pentax DSLR sales will continue to be APS-c, and the vast majority of Pentax users will be APS-c users.

And I'm also guessing that I'll consider buying the Pentax FF for the same two reasons I'd buy a D800 now.
1. I need bigger than 20x30 inch prints
2. I can't afford a 645D

Other people have other criteria. They don't have to sell to me for the FF to be successful. And they don't have to sell to you and people of your mindset either. All they have to do is come up with a product that offers something the competition doesn't, and market it to the people who might be interested in it. If any of the prognosticators on this site had useful knowledge of that skill set, they'd own a camera company. So take what they say with a grain of salt.
02-07-2013, 07:44 AM   #371
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Once a camera+lens combo isn't pocketable anymore, it has to be carried around in a bag. Size doesn't really matter anymore by then.

Moreover, it's personal. I find the K5 to be too small for my hands, the K20D had really good ergonomics. Handling my NEX is royal PITA, but I use it for it's better viewfinder.
I liked the K10/20D ergonomics as well. They were fine cameras to handle even with my smaller hands.

For enthusiasts and pros, it matters significantly, even if slightly. Large size means larger bags to fit in all the fast lenses they will want to carry with them on assignment. Large size also usually means more weight, and most people would prefer to have the same good quality gear in a smaller package, hence Pentax FA limiteds with a small and relatively lightweight FF model would equal a broad and highly marketable selling point. They just have to design more DFA WR lenses to complete the picture.
02-07-2013, 08:35 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Once a camera+lens combo isn't pocketable anymore, it has to be carried around in a bag. Size doesn't really matter anymore by then.
It's not only about pocketability, but not least packability. When I pack my camera and lens(es) into my rucksack for a weekend in our cottage, I don't want it to take up too much space. A Nikon D3 or a Canon EOS 1D would not be suitable for that reason, and to carry my photo gear in a camera bag is definitely not an option on those occasions.

Pentax K-5 or K-7 would suit me perfectly, if it was only about size, but since I own only manual focus lenses, I'm awaiting what Pentax might come up with in the FF area. While waiting for their FF offering I'm happy shooting film.
02-07-2013, 08:58 AM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
It will take 5 years to build up a full system (judging by MFT).
MFT started with zero lenses, and introduced a couple with the camera (I don't know exactly how many)

Pentax could introduce two zooms with the 8-10 primes they already have and get a pretty gosh-darn good system... better than MFT right now and far better in a year or two. If you include third party lenses they're already better than MFT without even having a camera.
02-07-2013, 08:59 AM   #374
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Different ergonomics, user interface and item locations makes an FF DSLR not me-too? I surely hope that's not going to be all that will set Pentax aside from the rest. If that would be enough to ensure growth for the FF DSLR, then those features would also be enough to ensure growth right now with APSC too.

I'm sorry, whilst e.g. Canon most certainly does have inferior ergonomics and inferior user interface, fact remains that those tiny, almost irrelevant, features do not influence the photographic end result in the slightest bit. What Canon user is going to switch to Pentax and give up Canon's superior AF, support, enormous lens lineup, peer 2 peer support, excellent third party support and availability just for Pentax's better button placement?!

Pentax used to have some very unique and good features going for them. They were the only ones with IBIS. They had the best bang for the buck ratio. Their lenses were super affordable due to no internal stabilisation or motors. And they used to be the ones with the best backwards compatibility.

They need a new set of such strong unique features. That way they could easily survive and grow, even without going FF.
It is not a matter of making something truly unique, never done before; that would be very risky. normhead is talking about something "a little different", do that, do it right and it should work IMO (however I strongly believe it should have all the modern features; even Leica's rangefinders now can make movies)

The target should not be overly ambitious; planning for converting Canikon users by offering them something much better, much cheaper is an idea doomed from the beginning IMHO. They just can't have the resources needed, and I'm sure Ricoh demands profit.
More reasonable is to target those actually waiting for a FF Pentax DSLR, and new users which are not with Canikon FF and are easier to get.

IBIS is still an advantage, combine that with "DSLR" and you have a market (neither Olympus nor Sony makes DSLR any longer). The K-5 body is amazing, OK, still perfectible but amazing. They can make 100% viewfinders cheaper than the competition. They can use a K-5 level quiet shutter.
With a competent camera and such small but not negligible advantages, they can have a winner. Not a "crush the competition" kind of winner, but the foothold into the FF territory which will allow them to advance even further.
02-07-2013, 10:11 AM   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
After all the guys who have sold there gear on this forum and bought some other brand, and all the posts from guys from other brands who have come and said they were moving to Pentax and saw it as an upgrade, I can't believe there would be people so naive to think that if Pentax makes a slightly different camera people won't buy it. Probably people who aren't Pentax users now. Why wouldn't they. People buy what suits them. They don't buy what people who think they know what people will buy say they will or won't.

Make something a little different and people will buy it. ... [snip] ...
+100 to all of that. Otherwise, we might as well call this insanity-cameras.com, the friendly site for fully framed psychosis, and have done with it. I live in a town which gets tens of thousands of tourists and visitors a year, a high proportion from the Far East since many learn English or study here for degrees and qualifications. I see about 2-3 FFs per year among all these countless visitors, and even their DSLRs, which not that many folks seem to carry, are the low to mid range ones not the high-end stuff. I think we forget how rarified this all is and therefore how difficult it must be for Pentax to produce something which makes any kind of financial sense.
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