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02-07-2013, 10:58 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
+100 to all of that. Otherwise, we might as well call this insanity-cameras.com, the friendly site for fully framed psychosis, and have done with it. I live in a town which gets tens of thousands of tourists and visitors a year, a high proportion from the Far East since many learn English or study here for degrees and qualifications. I see about 2-3 FFs per year among all these countless visitors, and even their DSLRs, which not that many folks seem to carry, are the low to mid range ones not the high-end stuff. I think we forget how rarified this all is and therefore how difficult it must be for Pentax to produce something which makes any kind of financial sense.
On the other hand, I spend a lot of time travelling in Asia and I see several Asian tourists with heavy artillery. And it is quite often women. When a western tourist have a DSLR it tend to be one of the cheaper plastic models with kit lens and either no lens hood or the hood reversed. That's in the glaring tropical sun

I just had a few words to check in Google AdWords and while I was at it I checked for "Pentax Full Frame" and "Pentax SDM". Neither subject is searched intensively to say the least! Still, almost twice as many people are interested in SDM than in FF (5400 vs 8100 searches/month). "Pentax K-5" was searched for 201.000 times.

02-07-2013, 11:08 AM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
+100 to all of that. Otherwise, we might as well call this insanity-cameras.com, the friendly site for fully framed psychosis, and have done with it. I live in a town which gets tens of thousands of tourists and visitors a year, a high proportion from the Far East since many learn English or study here for degrees and qualifications. I see about 2-3 FFs per year among all these countless visitors, and even their DSLRs, which not that many folks seem to carry, are the low to mid range ones not the high-end stuff. I think we forget how rarified this all is and therefore how difficult it must be for Pentax to produce something which makes any kind of financial sense.
The last time I checked (months ago, maybe a year), on Amazon's best sellers list, there were 10 full frame camera entries listed before the first Pentax listed.

Pentax is rare and APS-C competition is fierce-er than FF.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 02-07-2013 at 12:23 PM.
02-07-2013, 11:11 AM   #378
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That's a bit like saying they can do whatever they like and it will sell. Then why are there so many specialists in all kinds of companys researching what products to issue where in the market? Of course these things matter.
02-07-2013, 01:19 PM   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I wish Pentax could offer that and a classic FF DSLR with an OVF.
I mentioned that mirrorless FF because they'll do an FF with OVF anyway.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Although I don't see how they would put that optional optical viewfinder in a mirrorless camera though. Wouldn't that have to be something rangefinder-style then? But clearly, I'm not an engineer.
Actually, in a camera they way I described it above, it is feasible:

A K-mount mirrorless with recessable ens option and modular VF bump would allow for a mirror which stays locked up when combined with an EVF module or recessed lens, but behaves like in a normal dSLR with a classic lens and OVF module.

02-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I mentioned that mirrorless FF because they'll do an FF with OVF anyway.


Actually, in a camera they way I described it above, it is feasible:

A K-mount mirrorless with recessable ens option and modular VF bump would allow for a mirror which stays locked up when combined with an EVF module or recessed lens, but behaves like in a normal dSLR with a classic lens and OVF module.

... which might be able to take advantage of the XS lenses that protrude into the mirrorbox... except they were killed before they were built.
02-07-2013, 01:48 PM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pentax did the same thing when they stuck the K7 focus module in the 645D.
Huh? The K-7 used SAFOX VIII+, the 645D has SAFOX IX+. Pentax put the focus module from the 645D into the K-5.

The 645D uses the same Prime II processor, the same rear screen, and the same battery, but not the same AF module.
02-07-2013, 05:18 PM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I mentioned that mirrorless FF because they'll do an FF with OVF anyway.
I wish I had the same confidence.

Pentax has created a track record of "scratch your head" decisions and has repeatedly stated that they cannot market an FF model that has no unique selling proposition (implying that the unique combination of IBIS and OVF is not considered unique enough by them). Hence, my fear of something off the wall again.

Your mirrorless with a mirror, i.e., a DSLR that can pretend to be a mirrorless camera would tick many boxes, though.
02-07-2013, 07:00 PM   #383
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What products have Pentax made that make you scratch your head? I personally think that everything bar SDM has been nothing short of excellent. If it weren't for the P-TTL discrepancies, I'd say the K-5 II is a landmark APS-C camera. And Q is a novel as well as a practical concept. K-01 wasn't a bad idea as criticised as it was.

02-07-2013, 07:18 PM   #384
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QuoteQuote:
@Normhead
That's a bit like saying they can do whatever they like and it will sell. Then why are there so many specialists in all kinds of companys researching what products to issue where in the market? Of course these things matter.
pfffft, that's ridiculous... they are a camera company.... they aren't starting from scratch, they are going to come out with a decent camera, certainly not to everyone's liking perhaps, but something that they can sell. My guess is they go with what the marketing people tell them has the best chance of success. I'd go so far as to suspect they produce a number of different prototypes and take them to focus groups. Try and keep the conversation within the realm of reason.

QuoteQuote:
Then why are there so many specialists in all kinds of companys researching what products to issue where in the market? Of course these things matter.
When Steve Jobs came back to Apple he cut their product line from 32 computers to 4, and let all those guys go. Sometimes those specialists are worth the money, sometimes they just lucked into a pay check.
02-07-2013, 07:22 PM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Huh? The K-7 used SAFOX VIII+, the 645D has SAFOX IX+. Pentax put the focus module from the 645D into the K-5.

The 645D uses the same Prime II processor, the same rear screen, and the same battery, but not the same AF module.
Either way, you stick an APS-C focus module on a medium format camera. There is a lot of real estate that isn't covered very well.
02-07-2013, 07:32 PM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Either way, you stick an APS-C focus module on a medium format camera. There is a lot of real estate that isn't covered very well.
The tech exchange went the other direction 645D > K5
02-07-2013, 07:54 PM   #387
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On a 645, the size of the K-5 center AF sensor might actually make a bit of sense.
02-07-2013, 08:37 PM - 2 Likes   #388
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I hear a lot of statements like, I don't see any customers switching to Pentax. I own a camera store and have sold the new K5iis to a canon 5d mkII owner and one to a Sony owner. I also have sold three K30s to canon users. All of them sold their old gear and swithced due to features found in the Pentaxes not available in other brands. I have sold 4 K5 iis cameras in the last two weeks. I found it difficult to sell either of the mirror less cameras. Pentax is indeed garnering new devotees. Oh Yes, there are at least three professionals shooting Pentax exclusively in my town.
02-07-2013, 08:41 PM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I wish I had the same confidence.

Pentax has created a track record of "scratch your head" decisions and has repeatedly stated that they cannot market an FF model that has no unique selling proposition (implying that the unique combination of IBIS and OVF is not considered unique enough by them). Hence, my fear of something off the wall again.
I don't know this for sure, but my impression is that under the Hoya, Pentax had to keep a bare minimum of cameras on the market to stay a viable option and use least amount of money to do that. Thus all the time while Nikon and Canon had 5-7 DSLRs in the lineup, Pentax had only 2. How Pentax managed to stay afloat with just 2 DSLRs at any time, and attract attention, is a miracle in itself. Perhaps Hoya was totally uninterested in expanding more, and wouldn't allow any funds.

Therefore I expect such a tune and attitude to change, and that Pentax will have at least 4-5 K-mount capable cameras available at any time. I say K-mount capable because they may experiment with mirrorless solutions too.

So in addition to FF cameras, they must be working on new extra APS-C K-mount cameras too. A helluva lot of work to do, to clearly differentiate each offer. I'm concluding they have as much work with revamping their APS-C range as they have with the development of an FF range.

Last edited by Uluru; 02-07-2013 at 09:07 PM.
02-08-2013, 12:54 AM   #390
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QuoteOriginally posted by dbaird Quote
I hear a lot of statements like, I don't see any customers switching to Pentax. I own a camera store and have sold the new K5iis to a canon 5d mkII owner and one to a Sony owner. I also have sold three K30s to canon users. All of them sold their old gear and swithced due to features found in the Pentaxes not available in other brands. I have sold 4 K5 iis cameras in the last two weeks. I found it difficult to sell either of the mirror less cameras. Pentax is indeed garnering new devotees. Oh Yes, there are at least three professionals shooting Pentax exclusively in my town.
Aha. So there's real life examples of this, not just us users assuming there are photographers of other brands happily buying (and switching) into Pentax. And it shouldn't be a surprise given the K30 and K-5 II brilliance.
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