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02-10-2013, 10:23 AM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Popularity contests and sales are two distinct notions
You realize that when you search goods for instance on Amazon.com, that the search results for best rated and most popular are typically the same items, don't you (and that being both corresponds with increased sales)? If you can't see the correlation between sales and a manufactured good being recognized as most popular on a (like it or not) significant photography website - well, then I'm at a loss.

02-10-2013, 10:49 AM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And popularity contests are relevant, how exactly?
In this case it's real data generated by real people who have a real interest in photography (no one else would look at that website).

Now for you... how are the results irrelevant?
02-10-2013, 10:53 AM   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
do you know what percentage of DPR's readership are working professionals? I couldn't care less what decorative fluff DPR doles out to camera manufacturers, the 4/3 system is just a dead end. I know at least 30 working professionals who use DX format DSLR cameras- many of them are very successful commercially. I don't know a single photographer who works commercially with the 4/3 system.
Do you know what percentage of ILCs are bought by professionals? My hunch is it's rather small. Regardless of the actual number, the objective is to sell cameras to those who are willing to buy them.
02-10-2013, 11:05 AM   #469
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Real data about what? Sales? I don't think so.
All we know is that 3457 people thought the EM-5 is "the best camera" of 2012. On the second place - quite close - was the D800 and then, the 5D Mk III. I doubt those people bought D800s and 5D MkIIIs, as well.
I'd guess it's about people thinking that retro style looks good, and MILC fans mobilizing to make their option "win".

02-10-2013, 11:38 AM   #470
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Digressing very rapidly here.
02-10-2013, 12:10 PM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Real data about what? Sales? I don't think so.
All we know is that 3457 people thought the EM-5 is "the best camera" of 2012. On the second place - quite close - was the D800 and then, the 5D Mk III. I doubt those people bought D800s and 5D MkIIIs, as well.
I'd guess it's about people thinking that retro style looks good, and MILC fans mobilizing to make their option "win".
Yes, I am sure that not all voters owned the camera they voted for. At the same time, I think it is a fairly safe bet that more then 3457 copies of the E-m5, d800 and 5d mkiii have been sold (your comment appears to infer none of them could have possibly sold that many, which is a joke if true). I enjoy using the Pentax gear I own, but you're simply not living in reality if you don't think that a popular opinion poll equates to actual sales. When was the last time Pentax had trouble fulfilling pre-orders? I pre-ordered the e-m5 late (but before the release date) and waited almost 3 months for the camera from the release date. Did that happen with the K-5, II/IIs, K-30, k-01, Q? I am not picking on Pentax here, but you need to bring your frame of reference into the real world. The e-m5 didn't work for me, but it is a spectacular camera - Olympus is running on all cyclinders right now, the sensor is 95% of aps-c's capability, IBIS beats SR at the moment and they have the compact prime lens lineup to back it up. If you're just going to knock any camera that is not a Pentax, then you're just a fanboy.
02-10-2013, 12:28 PM   #472
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The Pentax FF sensor will be over 100% of both the m4/3 and APS-C sensors.
As for popularity contests, we have seen that Pentax gets <5% of the market share, and yet still got awards for most of its dSLRs in the past. Popularity (and even sale numbers) isn't everything.
02-10-2013, 12:40 PM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
As for popularity contests, we have seen that Pentax gets <5% of the market share, and yet still got awards for most of its dSLRs in the past. Popularity (and even sale numbers) isn't everything.
Market presence - in one form or another - is absolutely necessary.
If you don´t see it, it doesn´t exist. For many of us at least.
This may be one of Pentax´s biggest nuts to crack.

02-10-2013, 01:44 PM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Real data about what? Sales? I don't think so.
All we know is that 3457 people thought the EM-5 is "the best camera" of 2012. On the second place - quite close - was the D800 and then, the 5D Mk III. I doubt those people bought D800s and 5D MkIIIs, as well.
I'd guess it's about people thinking that retro style looks good, and MILC fans mobilizing to make their option "win".
I don't think really attempted to answer my question but, regardless, I suspect that if a Pentax camera was voted Camera of the Year, you wouldn't apply the tag "irrelevant" to that feat.
02-10-2013, 02:03 PM   #475
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I would attribute such a thing to Pentaxians mobilizing themselves to make their option "win". Of course, I would be somewhat happy about the much needed publicity... but that doesn't mean I'd fool myself into thinking it's the best sold camera or something.
02-10-2013, 02:35 PM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I would attribute such a thing to Pentaxians mobilizing themselves to make their option "win". Of course, I would be somewhat happy about the much needed publicity... but that doesn't mean I'd fool myself into thinking it's the best sold camera or something.
Fair enough. I'll add that Camera of the Year and Best Camera are not the same thing for no other reason that there's really no such thing as "best camera". People have many different needs and wants and it's impossible for any camera to meet all those various needs and wants better than anything else. So in that respect I concede that the E-M5 won something of a popularity contest but I also have to think it's popular because it's quite a good camera.
02-10-2013, 03:15 PM   #477
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There is no Good, so there is no Best

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Fair enough. I'll add that Camera of the Year and Best Camera are not the same thing for no other reason that there's really no such thing as "best camera". People have many different needs and wants and it's impossible for any camera to meet all those various needs and wants better than anything else. So in that respect I concede that the E-M5 won something of a popularity contest but I also have to think it's popular because it's quite a good camera.
You just stated one of the problems we have in our society creating an ordered meritocracy (deciding what is "the best").

There must be a logical progression to the order, such that there is a
  • Standard, then a
  • Comparative, then THE
  • Superlative
In common parlance we refer to this progression as
  • Good leads to
  • Better leads to
  • Best
Unfortunately unless all participants agree on the Standard we can never rank the members of the Class against each other fairly. We can't create an ordered meritocracy.

Until we agree on what is Good we can never agree on what is Best.

This problem exists in virtually every argument in our modern society - and the problem all stems from a Logic Innovation that swept Law Schools in the sixties - Critical Thinking.

The central tenet of Critical Thinking is that your preconceived assumptions are incorrect. You must examine them, question them, identify their faults and replace your assumptions with the correct assumptions (which we will teach you). Then , using these new, correct assumptions, using this new notion of what is Good, you will create a proper ordering of things. You will find a new Best.

So we can't agree on whether FF or APSc or m4/3 or 1/2" or Medium Format is the Standard against which everything else shall be measured.

There is no "Best" camera. There is no "Best" anything.

Because there is no Good.
02-10-2013, 03:57 PM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You just stated one of the problems we have in our society creating an ordered meritocracy (deciding what is "the best").

There must be a logical progression to the order, such that there is a
  • Standard, then a
  • Comparative, then THE
  • Superlative
In common parlance we refer to this progression as
  • Good leads to
  • Better leads to
  • Best
Unfortunately unless all participants agree on the Standard we can never rank the members of the Class against each other fairly. We can't create an ordered meritocracy.

Until we agree on what is Good we can never agree on what is Best.

This problem exists in virtually every argument in our modern society - and the problem all stems from a Logic Innovation that swept Law Schools in the sixties - Critical Thinking.

The central tenet of Critical Thinking is that your preconceived assumptions are incorrect. You must examine them, question them, identify their faults and replace your assumptions with the correct assumptions (which we will teach you). Then , using these new, correct assumptions, using this new notion of what is Good, you will create a proper ordering of things. You will find a new Best.

So we can't agree on whether FF or APSc or m4/3 or 1/2" or Medium Format is the Standard against which everything else shall be measured.

There is no "Best" camera. There is no "Best" anything.

Because there is no Good.
I think you are right in many ways, but I would disagree on one point. There is a good and there is a best. The problem arises in that it is a personal choice for each individual. There are professional photographers who use 4/3 and M4/3. There are professionals who use APS-C, APS-H, FF, 645, 6x7, and even Polaroid 20"x24" view cameras.

You can't apply the steps of critical thinking to a divers population with different needs and get an answer that everyone will agree upon because critical thinking is an individual action and the results are only valid for the individual doing the thinking.
02-10-2013, 04:39 PM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
You can't apply the steps of critical thinking to a divers population with different needs and get an answer that everyone will agree upon because critical thinking is an individual action and the results are only valid for the individual doing the thinking.
So we fall to relativism. I like my Pentax cameras and that should be enough.

Quite so
02-10-2013, 04:50 PM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So we fall to relativism. I like my Pentax cameras and that should be enough.

Quite so
Yes, because what is good or best is always relative and has to be taken in the context of the needs of the individual.
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