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02-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #511
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Oh man, a K5 is too small as it is. Put a FF sensor in a K10/K20-style body, give it some heft and hang some long, fast glass off it.

I know. I'm crazy.
Too small? And this from a man with an LX? Every time someone complains about the K-5 being small, I look at my LX or K2DMD and say to myself "What the hell are they talking about?" Let's not even start to think about the MX!

I repeat: what's wrong with putting a grip on the K-5? It extends battery life, makes the camera easier in portrait mode, and allows those without concert pianist hands to feel better about the ergonomics.

02-12-2013, 05:49 PM - 1 Like   #512
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
And this from a man with an LX? Every time someone complains about the K-5 being small, I look at my LX or K2DMD and say to myself "What the hell are they talking about?" Let's not even start to think about the MX!
I agree, some people have lost touch with exactly how small some film SLR cameras were. My only area of concern are the specifications of the FX camera viewfinder.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Because a smaller registry distance would enable the use of a lot more lenses from other manufacturers
ugh I hate it when people automatically think changing the registry distance is going to make things better- cameras with short registry distances have problems too you know: lens casts, massive vignetting, dust. I clean the sensor on my Leica M8 and M9 more than twice as many times as I clean the sensors of my DSLR cameras.


QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't see moire in my K-5IIs.
I have seen it plenty of times, just because you haven't seen it does not mean it doesn't exist. In any case I will be waiting for the release of the FX camera. Going from 16 to 24Mp really isn't enough of a difference - but going from 16 to 32Mp that would be an improvement, but diffraction would be crippling.

Last edited by Digitalis; 02-12-2013 at 06:07 PM.
02-12-2013, 06:31 PM   #513
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
Too small? And this from a man with an LX? Every time someone complains about the K-5 being small, I look at my LX or K2DMD and say to myself "What the hell are they talking about?" Let's not even start to think about the MX!

I repeat: what's wrong with putting a grip on the K-5? It extends battery life, makes the camera easier in portrait mode, and allows those without concert pianist hands to feel better about the ergonomics.
Holy Beelzebub!

I don't like the MX or MESuper, either. They're too small. It's a constant battle - VF or body. VF or body.

Heresy. Heresy!! Arise townspeople!! Smite him and burn him and poke him with sharp sticks!!

I am well aware how small film SLR's were in the 80's. I have an MESuper that I bought new in 1984; I've owned several MX's and sold them; but I always go back to the KX. The LX I have because, well, it is an LX. And with current ageing vision problems I need the VF's.

That's why I have and always have had K bodies (KX, KM, K2, K2DMD - all but the KX are at Eric's right now) and kept the K10D. And I have a grip on my K10D. The LX VF's won the constant battle. And I have the grip on mine. I just got a SuperProgram to try - doesn't it have a quasi-grip?

My comfort is my comfort.

If you read to the bottom of my post I foretold this response.

I Know. I'm crazy.
02-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #514
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
ugh I hate it when people automatically think changing the registry distance is going to make things better- cameras with short registry distances have problems too you know: lens casts, massive vignetting, dust. I clean the sensor on my Leica M8 and M9 more than twice as many times as I clean the sensors of my DSLR cameras.
Now that's a good response, your experience with the high end MILC variety sheds some good light on the argument. Thanks mate.

02-12-2013, 06:54 PM   #515
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Holy Beelzebub!

I don't like the MX or MESuper, either. They're too small. It's a constant battle - VF or body. VF or body.

Heresy. Heresy!! Arise townspeople!! Smite him and burn him and poke him with sharp sticks!!
You left out the ducking stool

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I am well aware how small film SLR's were in the 80's. I have an MESuper that I bought new in 1984; I've owned several MX's and sold them; but I always go back to the KX. The LX I have because, well, it is an LX. And with current ageing vision problems I need the VF's.
Well, no argument from me on that last one, speaking as one of long looking experience. The LX and the K2DMD feel positively dainty to me, after the K-5, even the *istD.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That's why I have and always have had K bodies (KX, KM, K2, K2DMD - all but the KX are at Eric's right now) and kept the K10D. And I have a grip on my K10D. The LX VF's won the constant battle. And I have the grip on mine. I just got a SuperProgram to try - doesn't it have a quasi-grip?

My comfort is my comfort.
Indeed it is, but you're not saying if the grip on the K10D works for you. I've had a grip for my K20D and my K-5, and I find they do complement the heftier lenses, even though I don't attach them that often.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If you read to the bottom of my post I foretold this response.

I Know. I'm crazy.
Ah, foretelling! A rare art these days, usually confined to politicians and rogue bankers.

No offence intended, btw, just a little confused (there's that word again) at the tension between your post and your signature.
02-12-2013, 06:57 PM   #516
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A film SLR is not a dSLR.

I shoot with two hands. 10 - 13mm less width means my left hand does not comfortably cradle the camera base. Right-hand grips aren't really all that relevant because almost all the camera grip happens with my left. Digital camera design requires use of the right thumb to manipulate controls so the right fingers have to grip the camera, thus dSLR's have a prominent integrated grip.. The K-5 grip shape allows my pinlie to slip off the bottom.

Comparing a dSLR ergonomically to an SLR doesn't take into account the fundamental change of operating method. I beleive it is more appropriate to compare a K-5 to a K10. So oif nly three fingers of my right hand fit on the grip of the K-5 it is smaller than I think confortable. Again - it is just me and I know I'm against the tide on this.

Rather than too small, which is a judgement, I should have written something such as, "Smaller than I find comfortable or, "Too small FOR ME." With the film cameras, I rarely hold one for several hours without putting it down. I rarely shoot more than half a roll per outing. With a digital camera I/we can hold it by the right-hand-grip for literally hours and make literally hundreds of clicks. Many shooters find smaller and lighter is better under those conditions. I get it. <G>

W x H x D
K2DMD = 144mm x 92mm x 57mm; 685g
LX = 144mm x 90mm x 50mm; 570g
MX = 135.8mm x 82.5mm x 49.3mm; 495g
-------------------------------------------------------------------
K5 = 131mm x 97mm x 73mm including integrated grip; 660g
K10D = 141mm x 101mm x 70mm including integrated grip; 710g

Last edited by monochrome; 02-13-2013 at 09:46 AM.
02-12-2013, 07:17 PM   #517
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Unfortunately digital camera design requires use of the right thumb to manipulate controls so the right fingers have to grip the camera.
Before I sold my DA (L?) 35, I used my K-x one-handed, with an off-..err, on-hand flash on my left hand, triggered wirelessly. Couldn't do that with my K-5 IIs without the grip.
02-12-2013, 11:20 PM   #518
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The K-5 with grip is a comfortable hold. Without the grip, it is slightly less comfortable than the K10D/K20D without D-BG2. But the flexibility to have a camera with or without a grip is handy at times.

02-13-2013, 12:27 AM   #519
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Well, I find the K-5's body slightly more comfortable to hold than the K10D's, due to differently shaped grip.
02-13-2013, 01:46 AM   #520
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, I find the K-5's body slightly more comfortable to hold than the K10D's, due to differently shaped grip.
+1! The K10D grip is not "grippy" enough (The alternative grip you could order looks better)
02-13-2013, 02:04 AM   #521
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I'll qualify my statement to say that I have no problem with the K-5 grip. I quickly became accustomed to it after the K10/20. And it's definitely a firmer grip than I have felt with other cameras - dSLRs or otherwise - I have held before.

Last edited by Ash; 02-13-2013 at 04:55 AM.
02-13-2013, 02:06 AM   #522
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The K-5 with grip is a comfortable hold. Without the grip, it is slightly less comfortable than the K10D/K20D without D-BG2. But the flexibility to have a camera with or without a grip is handy at times.
I find that too. The K5 has a very good shaped grip, but due to it's small size, the last two fingers slip off the grip. And I consider my hands to be relatively small. The grip solves that though.


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
ugh I hate it when people automatically think changing the registry distance is going to make things better- cameras with short registry distances have problems too you know: lens casts, massive vignetting, dust. I clean the sensor on my Leica M8 and M9 more than twice as many times as I clean the sensors of my DSLR cameras.
And I hate it when people don't read.

I've never had problems with lens cast on my NEX.

Massive vignetting only occurs when using lenses for smaller or very exotic formats. Lens choices that wouldn't even be available to mount on DLSRs.

I find my NEX to collect much less dust then my K5. (If any at all!) which I think has a very logical explanation. There are no moving mechanisms wearing down and shedding bits and pieces close to the the sensor. And no flapping mirror to wave those bits and other gunk around untill they finally settle somewhere, possibly on the sensor.

Maybe the problems that you describe are more related to how you use your gear then they are related to the gear itself? I mean, maybe you just use your Leica's much more often then any DSLR you had?

Changing the registry distance / going mirrorless has obvious advantages, because it would enable using a much wider choice of glass. Including natively unavailable focal lengths, natively unavailable resolutions, unavailable speeds or other. That's no assumption, but a fact. And nobody is saying that those advantages don't come with their own disadvantage either.

But in my opinion, that disadvantage (having to use K-mount glass through an adapter) doesn't weigh up against the advantages. Why would it? Nobody complains about mounting M42 through an adapter. Or mounting M39 through two.
02-13-2013, 02:11 AM   #523
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I find that too. The K5 has a very good shaped grip, but due to it's small size, the last two fingers slip off the grip. And I consider my hands to be relatively small. The grip solves that though.
IMHO, a vertical grip just makes it more difficult to hold the camera with the left hand in landscape mode. I have big hands and no problems with the grip, but YMMV of course.

QuoteQuote:
Massive vignetting only occurs when using lenses for smaller or very exotic formats. Lens choices that wouldn't even be available to mount on DLSRs.
It's a problem with e.g. quite a few Leica lenses on the NEX-7 - not so much with the other sensors.
02-13-2013, 04:01 AM   #524
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I've never had problems with lens cast on my NEX.
I have had problems with lens casts with a certain Carl Zeiss 28mm f/2.8 lens on my M9 - The leica equivalent lens doesn't have a problem at all. I suppose the reason why you don't see lens casts, or have problems with excessive vignetting is because the NEX sensor is 1.5X smaller than the sensor used in my M9. Hello Apples, meet the oranges!

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
It's a problem with e.g. quite a few Leica lenses on the NEX-7
The problem with vignetting also pops up when you use Zeiss,Hexanon and Voigtlander lenses on Leica Digital rangefinders as well. Also Lens casts are a big problem especially with focal lengths that aren't much longer than the flange distance - and depending on the RAW software you use lens casts can be much harder to get rid of than vignetting.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Maybe the problems that you describe are more related to how you use your gear then they are related to the gear itself? I mean, maybe you just use your Leica's much more often then any DSLR you had?
Good point, going through my Lightroom catalogues I use my Leica cameras quite a bit. Recently my Pentax K5IIs has been taking the limelight for the past month or so, as soon as I got my K5IIs I gave the mirror box and sensor a thorough wet cleaning*. I haven't had to clean my K5IIs sensor even once since that. And In that time I have had to clean the sensor on my M9 three times and my Monochrom twice - granted there were dust specs you probably wouldn't see until f/16. Perhaps the reasons why dust is so problematic it is because the M9 and monochrom use a CCD, and NEX cameras use CMOS. With CCD sensors there is a theory amongst leicaphiles that they produce a degree of static electricity in their operation which would explain why they are such dust magnets**. I don't have to clean the sensor in my 1D MKIIN, 1DSMKII, or D800E anywhere near as much.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Changing the registry distance / going mirrorless has obvious advantages, because it would enable using a much wider choice of glass. Including natively unavailable focal lengths, natively unavailable resolutions, unavailable speeds or other. That's no assumption, but a fact.
Okay yes if pentax changed the flange distance of their cameras we would be able to use a few hundred more lenses, but the problem is - would we even want to? sure there are some really nice lenses out there for cameras with short registry distances, however most of them are designed for sensors no bigger than 4/3 and some of them are hard to find or expensive, and there are quite a few RF lenses that aren't up to the task of being used on a digital sensor.

*I do this with every new camera I get, people who purchase a new camera and complain about oil spots on their sensors when all they need to do is clean the sensor properly.
** Now that I think about it, I should go through my cleaning records for the Pentax 645D and S2 - they both use large CCD sensors.

Last edited by Digitalis; 02-13-2013 at 04:07 AM.
02-13-2013, 04:19 AM   #525
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I have had problems with lens casts with a certain Carl Zeiss 28mm f/2.8 lens on my M9 - The leica equivalent lens doesn't have a problem at all. I suppose the reason why you don't see lens casts, or have problems with excessive vignetting is because the NEX sensor is 1.5X smaller than the sensor used in my M9. Hello Apples, meet the oranges!
True, I hadn't thought of that at all! Very good point.

But wouldn't a K-mount DSLR suffer from the same vignetting? Back in the film days vignetting was pretty common and accepted.


QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
** Now that I think about it, I should go through my cleaning records for the Pentax 645D and S2 - they both use large CCD sensors.
You keep cleaning records?
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