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02-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #616
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SO, when is that Pentax FF coming out? And where are they finding a sensor?

02-27-2013, 12:41 PM   #617
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Kind of missing the point.

Sony chose notto put its own sensors in their FF camera series and instead sold 100% of those next gen sensors to Nikon. So the Nikon D700/D3s (and now D800) all were Sony sensors Sony chose not to put into Sony cameras.

Instead, Sony dropped out--pretty much for 2 years--of the FF market (early 2010 only 5 months after the a850 release to ~late 2012 when the SLT a99 was announced...but not yet available for another 3 months along with the DSC-RX1).

Obviously, even with SLT/EVF as their new differentiation badge, Sony bean counted that the FF DSLR market could not handle more than 2 players.The $2000/body price point is a killer for volume sales.

Pentax likely came to the same conclusion, legitimately. They chose to cede FF to Canikon because to enter in with both bodies and lenses likely meant buying too few sensors from Sony at too high prices (low volume), making the whole FF endeavour a money loser once one factors in the need to revamp the lens line-up.

The capital cost to make an FF body is likely not much more than a K-5 considering Pentax already wrestles with the 645D. The real cost for the body is the price delta between the APS-C and FF sensors + additional FF needs (battery, processor, 10% more raw material/body, etc.). So you get a near-$2000 body. That's a small, small, small market.

The real barrier is investing in 4-5 FF zoom lenses and a similar rework of their FF primes, all while keeping APS-C sales afloat, not just in volume but in price. how do you keep selling a DA70mm (stellar lens) at its current price when FF is the target market. Realistically Pentax needs to severely drop the price of its DA lens line to meet the sub-$1000/body APS-C DSLR market. Pentax cannot keep up the cash flow of high-end DA lenses in an FF world. APS-C is not going anywhere, but its prices are going down.
Interesting points. I wonder if the rumours of a Sony FF NEX (and the RX1 of course) is Sony nosing around whether the FF mirrorless market can handle any players at all. If it can, perhaps that's where the smaller players, including Pentax, will pile in - still leaving the DSLRs to the big two.

It's going to be hard for Pentax to drop its prices for a lot of DA lenses, at a guess. The classic limited primes are all-metal and so must cost a bit to produce, for a start. On the other hand if they start replacing them with plastic fantastics that are cheaper to produce, that's another differentiator gone. In addition, while the DA lenses remain at their present prices, I'd guess Pentax pretty well have to keep producing expensive premium cameras to put them on. But for cameras costing a lot less, there must be a bit of a mismatch between the price/quality of the camera and that of the (very fine) all-metal DA lenses.

Oh well, back to "When is a Pentax FF coming out?" I guess no one knows whether one will ever come out let alone when. All this stuff about FF being confirmed on the basis of a remark in an interview is pretty iffy, imho.
02-28-2013, 07:19 AM   #618
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I stand corrected:

Full Frame DSLR Cameras Part I ? Nikon vs Sony | Technology Blog

The D700/D3 were probably not made by a Sony foundry but by Renesas with Nikon design to the core.

The D600 and D800 are Sony sensor, likely using Nikon design input.

The Sony a850/900 could not compete with Nikon's designs, so Sony, eager to keep Nikon biz, have obviously come to some arrangement now being the main foundry for Nikon FF, the D4 excepted (but being a 1/2 generation older than the D800/600). Sony's not competing on the "pure" DSLR format going with SLT/EVF and the RX compact.

Pentax FF availability relies on a price-competitive sensor in MP's and ISO. They can approach Sony whose products are the clear front runner in IQ but for this to happen Sony as #3 in FF (I'll leave Leica bling out of this) they'd have to make room for a #4 in such a way as to grow the overall market and not cannibalize sale either from Sony itself or from their largest customer by far, Nikon. Even with the 645D under their belts, Pentax/Ricoh does not appear to have the resources to design a spec and price competitive, mass produced FF sensor.

I am still not seeing FF sensors with commodity availability and price as APS-C. Once sensors reach a commodity status then shopping around is common, such as Canon using Sony sensors in compacts, and Fuji doing their own thing. As long as FF sensors straddle the line with being custom designs and multiple points of redundancy (D4/800/600) to capture pro and prosumer market, the volume factor in sales becomes the driving force. For Pentax to succeed at FF, they literally would have to replace the K-5 line entirely with FF at a near-equivalent price and lens availability, all at once, while still maintaining a very good APS-C offering, bodies and lenses, just for cash flow.
02-28-2013, 07:48 AM   #619
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
They can approach Sony whose products are the clear front runner in IQ but for this to happen Sony as #3 in FF (I'll leave Leica bling out of this) they'd have to make room for a #4 in such a way as to grow the overall market and not cannibalize sale either from Sony itself or from their largest customer by far, Nikon.
I think the Sony units making sensors and cameras are independent enough that I'm not sure whether you're right here. But if you are, Sony would perhaps be more comfortable making a 645D sensor? 72mp 36x48 Exmor sounds nice to me

02-28-2013, 05:04 PM   #620
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If Pentax does produce a full frame camera in 2014 - perhaps we should get started on a petition for Zeiss to re-start production on lenses for the K mount. Since most of those lenses were full frame there wasn't much point in using them on APS-C cameras, but that will all change when the Full frame pentax camera comes out.
03-02-2013, 10:00 AM   #621
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?????????? Google

Please, compare the words of Stephen Elop with words of Pentax guys

"The most important part of our products are distinctive features. If we decide to enter the market, then the certainty of success, we should have a very noticeable difference. What we have done with the products Lumia. We pay a lot of attention to this. At the same time, we pay close attention to the new trends in the market, which are now taking place. At the moment everything is very vague, we strive to make the findings of a series on the market of tablet-based Windows 8 and Windows RT: What is the distinctive features we should implement. This area is of great interest, there are obvious strategic similarities to what we are already doing in the mobile sector, but we have to be very careful when entering the tablet market ", - said the head of Nokia.
03-02-2013, 10:08 AM   #622
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Full-Frame cameras

Glad to hear that Pentax is planning a FF camera!
03-02-2013, 02:08 PM   #623
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxian76 Quote
Glad to hear that Pentax is planning a FF camera!
Yeah, I don't think Nokia is an example of anything but utter failure.
Even it's late success is nothing but a swan song before being completely sold out to Microsoft.
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, but I'd very very surprised.
Nokia can't win, M$ can't lose.

03-02-2013, 03:01 PM   #624
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Nokia is truly an amazing story considering their utter dominance of the market a mere decade ago. In my family of 5 we purchased something like 20 of their phones between upgrades and replacements for losses and swimming errors.

Part of the reason we were loyal was tied to proprietary peripheral and infrastructure lock-in - car chargers, wall chargers, wired earphones, etc. When they reduced the size of their connector pins to the mini-standard that loyalty was broken.

Which is perhaps instructive for Pentax and the K-mount.
03-02-2013, 11:50 PM   #625
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I still use Nokia and always used it before.

The main point is not NOKIA.
03-03-2013, 01:54 AM   #626
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But what is the main point, then? It must be some sort of "the sky is falling" - but I can't see the link between Pentax and the company which once ruled the market, but failed to adapt when the smartphone-mania occurred (well, it was the AF thing but that was ages ago). Except that both are trying to find "distinctive features"; and that:
A. is not what almost killed Nokia (but the previous inaction)
B. finding "distinctive features" is an usual course of action, so much I can't even call this a coincidence
C. could work for Nokia, if done right (but it would be difficult)
D. is already working for Pentax, when done right

Trying to further draw conclusions from this single link is called a false analogy.

By the way, the smartphone market will become interesting to watch - as major manufacturers seems to plan moving away from Android.

Last edited by Kunzite; 03-03-2013 at 02:05 AM.
03-03-2013, 09:17 AM   #627
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Too much nonsense
03-03-2013, 10:12 AM   #628
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But what is the main point, then?
Nokia 2003 +/- = Pentax 1968. Technology has only compressed time.

I'm on our side but you can't deny that Pentax has hung on too long to a dominant but ageing technology time and again, with the occasional burst of creativity. (MX, MESuper, LX , some * lenses, MZ-5, 645n, K10D).
03-03-2013, 10:51 AM   #629
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I mentioned the ancient history But how about now, when these similar comments were made? What should I think about this, since ogl is implying there is more than it appears?
Of course, we can see few similar points between the two companies; but IMHO they aren't as useful and can't be used to extend one's characteristics to the other (i.e. the false analogies). They are different companies, competing on different markets, having failed in different ways, for different reasons.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Too much nonsense
Don't post it, then!
03-09-2013, 01:19 PM   #630
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Where is our full frame?!!!

I'm sick and tired of hearing about a possible full frame Pentax camera. Where the hell is it?!!!
Sure the k-5's are great cameras but they're no full frame. I never really thought it was a big deal that Pentax didn't have a full frame but after trying Canon and Nikon's full frame cameras, I'm sold. Try one and I think you'll agree, it's a superior experience. I don't want to change camps but what are we supposed to do?

Come on Pentax, show us some FF love already.
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