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03-09-2013, 01:25 PM   #631
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We're looking at 2014 now for the FF, to be realistic. Pentax only got serious about developing one last year. You can't rush art.

03-09-2013, 01:44 PM - 1 Like   #632
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You're right but 2014 is a joke. They've already lost almost a decade to the others. FF is no longer a niche market, it's the mainstream. Everyone is going FF. They've known it was heading in that direction for years now, and nothing. Talk about dropping the ball!

They can skip the Big FF, studio DSLR type camera, at this point. The only real complaint I hear about FF cameras is their size and weight. People want to carry their cameras around all day without the hassle sore muscles. I'd really like to see a Pentax FF that's small and portable. Maybe the size of the x-pro 1. Performance that you can actually carry around.
03-09-2013, 02:19 PM   #633
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FF is no more mainstream than it has been judging form sales data. The next move from Nikon and Canon are more competitive high-end APS bodies and more APS lenses...
There will be complaints regardless of how the Pentax FF will be. If it is 24mp people will complain that it is not 36mp (or 48). If it is 36mp some will complain that it is not 24mp and cheaper. If it is expensive they complain that it too expensive and is it cheap they will complain that it don't have the features of more expensive cameras. A small FF camera will be too small for some and others will complain if it is not as small as a K-5.
03-09-2013, 03:37 PM   #634
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
FF is no more mainstream than it has been judging form sales data. The next move from Nikon and Canon are more competitive high-end APS bodies and more APS lenses...
There will be complaints regardless of how the Pentax FF will be. If it is 24mp people will complain that it is not 36mp (or 48). If it is 36mp some will complain that it is not 24mp and cheaper. If it is expensive they complain that it too expensive and is it cheap they will complain that it don't have the features of more expensive cameras. A small FF camera will be too small for some and others will complain if it is not as small as a K-5.
Hehe, so true!

03-09-2013, 03:50 PM   #635
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
You can't rush art.
03-09-2013, 04:04 PM   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentee Quote
You're right but 2014 is a joke. They've already lost almost a decade to the others. FF is no longer a niche market, it's the mainstream. Everyone is going FF. They've known it was heading in that direction for years now, and nothing. Talk about dropping the ball!

They can skip the Big FF, studio DSLR type camera, at this point. The only real complaint I hear about FF cameras is their size and weight. People want to carry their cameras around all day without the hassle sore muscles. I'd really like to see a Pentax FF that's small and portable. Maybe the size of the x-pro 1. Performance that you can actually carry around.
3yrs ago, the FF came from Canikony.
Now, the FF comes from Canikony.
So perhaps everyone is going FF, but seems like no one has reached there yet (if they are even really considering).
03-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #637
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QuoteOriginally posted by pentee Quote
FF is no longer a niche market, it's the mainstream. Everyone is going FF. They've known it was heading in that direction for years now, and nothing. Talk about dropping the ball!
FF is single-digit, niche market; people didn't suddenly become able to afford to spend $2000+ on cameras alone. And AFAIK, no new FF players appeared last year - your "everyone" actually means "no one".

Pål, "there will be complaints"? People are already complaining!
03-09-2013, 04:29 PM - 3 Likes   #638
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
FF is single-digit, niche market; people didn't suddenly become able to afford to spend $2000+ on cameras alone. And AFAIK, no new FF players appeared last year - your "everyone" actually means "no one".
Is a $7000 lens and a camera for Anime followers not niche? Was the K-01 mainstream?
Seems like Pentax favors niche products. Might as well release a niche product that doesn't generate ridicule.

03-09-2013, 04:53 PM   #639
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Obviously, an expensive long lens is niche - what's your point?
I'm not saying they shouldn't make a FF (if/when possible), but it's not mainstream and to my knowledge there was no new FF player last year. So, instead of a desperate move because "everyone is going FF" and they shouldn't be the only ones who didn't, they could go with a more thought-out (and profitable) plan.
By the way, there will always be people willing to ridicule Pentax products; some of them are even disguised as "Pentaxians".
03-09-2013, 04:55 PM   #640
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
FF is single-digit, niche market; people didn't suddenly become able to afford to spend $2000+ on cameras alone.
I spent $2k on a camera, a ~$500 lens, and maybe $50 worth of other stuff, just a couple of months ago. So let's call it $1500 or so.

In another year it'll be less.
03-09-2013, 05:00 PM   #641
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Is a $7000 lens and a camera for Anime followers not niche? Was the K-01 mainstream?
Seems like Pentax favors niche products. Might as well release a niche product that doesn't generate ridicule.
645D is such niche product.

But Petax was indeed wrong for releasing the 645D before the FF. Although they are both niche products, one niche is more relevant in people's minds than other niche, because one utilises the widely popular K-mount, and is perceived as a natural peak above the clouds. Without it, the offer always seems incomplete. A mountain never worth climbing.

People always love to have an extra option in life, one peak unconquered. Something worth having 'one day'. And the FF addresses that deep psychological urge. Otherwise, people go.

FF is a small snowball, but one that causes an avalanche of sales in all other areas.
Nikon has completely revitalised itself after the release of FF — and became the big brand again. That is the fact, and the testament of the sheer power of that single-digit, niche market snowball.
03-09-2013, 05:32 PM   #642
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No, I don't think it was wrong - the 645D was pretty much a guaranteed success on a much less competitive market. A FF was IMO more risky, and requiring a bigger effort.
What was wrong was to fund-starve and downsize the R&D, which also meant no FF possible under Hoya.

ElJamoquio, still, most people won't pay that much (that was second hand, right?)
03-09-2013, 06:45 PM   #643
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Full Frame is a must

Did you forget about Sony? Obviously, not everyone has $2,000.00 for a full frame camera, but there should be one in the stable. Not having one is a loosing strategy. Try one of the other manufacturer's FF. I guarantee you'll want one.
It's a whole other world!
03-09-2013, 06:56 PM - 1 Like   #644
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, I don't think it was wrong - the 645D was pretty much a guaranteed success on a much less competitive market. A FF was IMO more risky, and requiring a bigger effort.
What was wrong was to fund-starve and downsize the R&D, which also meant no FF possible under Hoya.
FF is not about being competitive alone — it is an excuse that I'm personally being bored to death hearing over and over again.

FF development is all about keeping your own user base more homogenous and more inspired. It's something like a Trojan war, with Greeks having Achilles among them. Smart man Odysseus pursued and insisted to have him fighting, because he knew that Achilles alone will wage the war for them — not because all Greeks (APS-C cameras) are lame fighters, but because they needed a morale boost from someone they considered half-god and a role-model, someone of their own blood. Someone they believed more than their own king (K-mount).

645D is strong, but big, clumsy, slow, like giant Ajax, too expensive to feed, can wield only one weapon, his mace (or 55mm lens on 645D was the only one available for years) and it didn't achieve that level of inspiration in such an extent an FF camera (far more versatile Achilles) would do.

This comparison between Trojan war and Pentax situation is almost scarily analogous.


Last edited by Uluru; 03-09-2013 at 07:07 PM.
03-09-2013, 07:07 PM   #645
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Some of the people dismissing FF and its market share remind of Nokia before the smart phone revolution. During the era of dumb phones Nokia was the number one player, completely oblivious to the growing trend of smart phones. They dismissed the new gadgets as too expensive for the average consumer. They could point to the fact that the vast majority of the world still used dumb phones (they still do), all the time falling further and further behind the new players like Apple, Samsung and HTC. By the time they woke up, well, they are now a shell of the company they once were. And once Asia and Africa really embrace smart phones, Nokia is doomed.

APS-C dSLRs still rule the roost and will for the near future. But you can't deny that FF will get cheaper with every generation. The next few years will see FF cameras in the $1500 range and lower. It's the Nokia story spread out over a longer time frame, expect Pentax doesn't have the luxury of being the number one player.
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