[ElJamoquio]

There's a problem with your argument still. You are right that comparable FF lenses don't exist for several of the DA ltd's. The problem is that those small comparables lenses will never exist. So if I buy a FF camera then I will need to buy larger lenses. There is pretty much no disputing this.

Just to be (less?) clear, sometimes some of us are talking about real lenses and sometimes we're talking about hypothetical products, like any Pentax FF camera or associated lenses.

Real Lenses:

There are certainly lenses which are small for APS-C cameras that don't exist for FF's (23mm F/6 lens). But the smallest, lightest APS-C lens I know (40mm f/2.8 XS - or 61mm F/4.3 as a full-frame equivalent), is a very capable full-frame lens. If you don't mind cropping in post, it's like a 26-40mm F/1.8-2.8 zoom on APS-C, with instant zoom, and for 50 grams! Even a 26mm F/1.8 would be probably 400-500 grams or so, given that the 31mm is what, 350 grams or so?

So I disagree - I think there is a lot of information that disputes the "fact" that full-frame lenses need to be larger than APS-C lenses.

You could argue the 40mm it doesn't cover full-frame, but I'm guessing the full-frame vignetting on the 40mm at F/4.5 is better than the APS-C vignetting at F/2.8. I could be wrong there, of course... but the 40mm is certainly very close to full frame.

Other lenses

Most people who buy FF are enthusiasts and would be on APS-C, too - so I see no sense in comparing an APS-C zoom with an equivalent aperture of F/6 to a full-frame zoom with an aperture of F/2.8. The same is true for most primes that are available for APS-C.

The only exceptions I can think right now are things like
1) 15mm F/4
2) 21mm F/3.2
3) 8-16 Sigma f/4.5-whatever

So these slow lenses have no equivalent on full-frame that I'm aware of. In general, though, for most "enthusiast" lenses, the FF-lens is cheaper and lighter, or doesn't exist. And of course, just like with telephoto lenses, you could always crop a wide-angle lens, too.


APS-C certainly does have some legitimate advantages, though:

1) Any photographer who doesn't post process can get a crop advantage
2) Maximum rate is usually quite higher
3) Very slow lenses (F/4 and up on APS-C, F6 and up on full-frame) are basically unavailable on Full-frame, so if those lenses have some advantage and are adequate for a photographers needs, then that's an advantage
4) Initial cost of the camera is lower
5) The APS-C camera should/will have a slightly smaller prism hump
6) The APS-C camera should/will be a bit lighter

[normhead]

So these slow lenses have no equivalent on full-frame that I'm aware of. In general, though, for most "enthusiast" lenses, the FF-lens is cheaper and lighter, or doesn't exist. And of course, just like with telephoto lenses, you could always crop a wide-angle lens, too.

Almost any FF lens can be used on APS-c where as many APS-c lenses can not be used on FF, so you could also say you have a lot more choice shooting APS-c, or an APS-c crop on an FF camera.

[Ash]

I made the point elsewhere that as small as the FA Limited lenses are, being FF compatible, the DA Ltd lenses are smaller still. *Generally* speaking, FF lenses are larger than APS-C ones because inherently they need slightly more glass (and therefore size) for the lenses to cover a larger image circle. The FA Ltd lenses are testament that Pentax can go against the grain and produce excellent glass that is both small and lightweight.

[Akarak]

if i have money when it comes out yes.

i've been shooting in black and white film because i got a deal on a 10 pack film and everytime i pick up my k20d with the smc-m 50mm it feels like a toy, aps-c is like a sample of the real thing...

im shoting with a p50 and my k20d lens... it's sad, but i should'a never returned to shoting filme... the aps-c format feels really toyish, a childs toy.

please fullframe.. i give u my kidney pentax

[Ash]

That's an exaggeration, but an acceptable one from a FF passionate.
APS-C can be just as effectively used as a professional tool nowadays, given the sensor technology. Gone are the days when we had 6Mp in the flagship model and had little room to move with noise.

[Akarak]

ahhaa i wish... the DOF, the bokeh size... the crop.. the compression between subjects... it's diferent.. i bought a 35mm to replace "50mm ff" and it's not the same.. even at the same F number... full frame all the way ahhaha i really am enjoying this go bak to analog thing im doing.

[ElJamoquio]

ahhaa i wish... the DOF, the bokeh size... the crop.. the compression between subjects... it's diferent.. i bought a 35mm to replace "50mm ff" and it's not the same.. even at the same F number... full frame all the way ahhaha i really am enjoying this go bak to analog thing im doing.

You've hit upon the problem.

If you want the same picture, say with APS-C and 21mm F/3.2 lens at F/4, you'd need to use a full-frame camera at 31mm and F/6.

Of course it's not exactly the same, still, with real lenses, etc., but if you used the same aperture you're not going to be close.

[ElJamoquio]

*Generally* speaking, FF lenses are larger than APS-C ones because inherently they need slightly more glass (and therefore size) for the lenses to cover a larger image circle.

That's only generally true if you assume that the same aperture is required for both lenses.

[KB1SFVE3]

I was just wondering how many here would buy a Pentax Full Frame DSLR. I would.

Edit: (Assuming the camera is k-mount and top of the line. Time frame not important.. when available or two years later)

Probably not in the near term.....if ever.

I've just invested heavily in K-10 and K-20 bodies and lenses....most picked up used. And I steadfastly refuse to be yet another 'beta tester' for Pentax...or anyone else.

That is, over the years, I've learned that having the "latest and greatest" is not always best, particularly until the makers work out all the bugs in the new design. I'm also a ham radio operator and have learned (the hard way) to WAIT a year or two (or three) to purchase the "new and improved" stuff until its been in the field awhile for others to find all the bugs....and spend THEIR hard-earned cash to send things back for repair and/or upgrade.

Besides, it's not all the "bells and whistles" in the camera, but what's in the eye of the photographer that makes the best pictures.

[jesssss]

I'm too late for the poll, but I've been thinking about this lately.

There was a time a couple of years ago when I absolutely would have jumped at the chance. Now the budget is tighter (babies!) and I have my darkroom back up and running (6x7!), so I really would have to pass and keep my digital shooting to my K-01.

[Galileo'sDog]

Just as moving up from the KX to the K5 was inevitable for me, so it is that Pentax will come out with a full frame DSLR, and I also predict that just as the K5 and later models have proven competitive with Canon and Nikon's best DX cameras the soon to come Pentax FF will play on the same field with it's Canon and Nikon and other guys counterparts. And when they do my K-5 (to which I affectionately refer to as "Betsy") will make a fine back up to the K-whatever-they-wanna-call-it.

[GeneV]

Poll is closed, but count me in for a yes. Right now, it is about the only way I am buying another Pentax DSLR. I have four APS-C bodies, and the improvements since the K-10d are more and more incremental. I still use all of them, and I would need something to really add a new dimension (or be dirt cheap, like the final K-01 price) to lure me into a purchase.

[Bumbles]

Poll is closed, but count me in for a yes. Right now, it is about the only way I am buying another Pentax DSLR. I have four APS-C bodies, and the improvements since the K-10d are more and more incremental. I still use all of them, and I would need something to really add a new dimension (or be dirt cheap, like the final K-01 price) to lure me into a purchase.

Four APS-C bodies? Ok, I'm jealous I've got one Canon 40D, and am *trying* to make my way back into Pentax. Everytime I save up just enough, life happens *lol*.
Any particular Pentax APS-C body you would recommend to an experienced shooter that will be new to Pentax digital? I don't need video(but if it's there, ok), but I want the best IQ I can get.
I only shoot in RAW and process by hand (I love the time spent doing it). My love of cameras came from developing film / negatives and making my own prints in a darkroom, so when I started working in digital, that love stayed with me.

[ElJamoquio]

Four APS-C bodies? Ok, I'm jealous I've got one Canon 40D, and am *trying* to make my way back into Pentax. Everytime I save up just enough, life happens *lol*.
Any particular Pentax APS-C body you would recommend to an experienced shooter that will be new to Pentax digital? I don't need video(but if it's there, ok), but I want the best IQ I can get.
I only shoot in RAW and process by hand (I love the time spent doing it). My love of cameras came from developing film / negatives and making my own prints in a darkroom, so when I started working in digital, that love stayed with me.

I don't know if the K-5 (used) or the K-30 (used) is cheaper, but either one would be a great fit for you - tremendous IQ per dollar.

The K-5 has slightly better IQ (14 bit) and another advantage or two I can't remember.
The K-30 has focus-peaking which is awesome (IMO) for manual focus lenses on APS-C bodies. It won't help if you're looking through the viewfinder, though, of course.

[GeneV]

Four APS-C bodies? Ok, I'm jealous I've got one Canon 40D, and am *trying* to make my way back into Pentax. Everytime I save up just enough, life happens *lol*.
Any particular Pentax APS-C body you would recommend to an experienced shooter that will be new to Pentax digital? I don't need video(but if it's there, ok), but I want the best IQ I can get.
I only shoot in RAW and process by hand (I love the time spent doing it). My love of cameras came from developing film / negatives and making my own prints in a darkroom, so when I started working in digital, that love stayed with me.

I come from the same place about RAW, and always had a darkroom.

I don't know how much money you have to spend. I buy most of my bodies as the model is being replaced. Right now, the best deal on that basis is the original K5. I love its sensor. If you have less to spend, then look into a used kr, kx, or k20d. The K20d will give you plenty of megapixels and the ability to adjust focus for various lenses. It has no video and a bigger, more solid body that many of us old-timers like. It will be a better buy than the K7, with a similar sensor, but shares the body size and accessories with the K5. The kx and kr have the smaller, more plastic bodies which don't take grips and other accessories, but excellent low-light capabilities.