When it comes to image quality......

Fogel70 · 05-15-2013, 12:28 AM

I don't see much point for Pentax making cameras with APS-H sensors. And to make full use of this sensor format Pentax would need to start with designing at least a few dedicated zoom lenses for it. Wide and normal FF zooms do not work very well on APS-H as they will limit FOV to much. Pentax would need something like 18-55mm and 11-18mm APS-H lenses to replicate FF 24-70mm and 14-24mm lenses.

And Pentax can forget to get better support from third party lens designer if the choose to use APS-H sensors.

If Pentax is to make APS-H sensor cameras they will need to show the same dedication to this format as they have shown on APS-C. So then we can forget FF for another 10-15 years.The only reason I see for APS-H is if FF for some magical reason would not be possible to use on K-mount cameras, so APS-H would be a replacement for FF.

Choosing APS-H over FF will probably not make cameras much cheaper for Pentax, but it would be easy to implement several crop modes in a FF cameras to better support APS-C lenses.

Last edited by Fogel70; 05-15-2013 at 01:10 AM.

jogiba · 05-15-2013, 08:06 AM

A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go.

NickLarsson · 05-15-2013, 08:43 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by jogiba

A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go.

Please also add an APS-H mode for Ron so everybody is gonna be happy

ipemc · 05-16-2013, 02:31 PM

I complettely agree!
A FF camera with APS-H and APS-C and different formats (5:4, 4:3)would be great. If is not possible to get the SR in FF working it would probably do in APS-H size. The only thing it can NOT happen ist to give up PK mount.

**Aristophanes** · 05-21-2013, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by ipemc

I complettely agree!
A FF camera with APS-H and APS-C and different formats (5:4, 4:3)would be great. If is not possible to get the SR in FF working it would probably do in APS-H size. The only thing it can NOT happen ist to give up PK mount.

Need square format or I will be very unhappy.

And it should make sounds like kittens when it needs attention.

normhead · 05-21-2013, 06:22 PM

I think we're missing the point of APS-c H. it would be to make use of existing FF lenses with the addition of shake reduction. If in fact the Pentax shake reduction system cannot be used with an FF sensor, (and that has yet to be determined), then going to APS-h might allow one to use all those FA lens on a closer to FF system. It's a bit of a reach either way, and no one really knows what the exact situation. Based on my own work, I'm guessing APS-h might allow me to use my DA*60-250 even, and that would be fantastic.

APS-c has the advantage of providing a larger sensor if Pentax Shake reduction is not FF compatible. If Pentax has to go to in lens image stabilization to make FF work on a k-mount and you have to turn off SR to use your 31 ltd....that becomes problematic. If you have to design all new FF lenses with more coverage to have SR work, then that as well becomes problematic. How about a 28 MP APS-h sensor as the solution? I'm not seeing what the downside is. You get closer to FF DoF, much more resolution and more sensor surface area, keeping all current FF lenses in play and some APS-c lens as well.

jcdoss · 05-21-2013, 07:02 PM

Maybe FF, APS-C horizontal, APS-C vertical, and square crop formats?

How do RAW files look when taken in crop modes? Also, how does the viewfinder work? Crop lines? And who changes the kitty litter?

Winder · 05-21-2013, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by topace

There are absolutely D800 users who don't like the file size or the in-camera processing times. Another point to consider is that a 36MP sensor will be very unforgiving towards lenses. The 16 MP APS-C sensors have this problem to, since they have the same pixel size, but it's somewhat offset by the sweet spot advantage.

As for FF vs APS-H, I would very likely buy either if it was the next Pentax Flagship, but I would somewhat regard an APS-H product as chickening out of a true commitment, and I'm afraid that the market would see it much the same.

1. People have the option of shooting at reduced resolution in JPEG.
2. APS-H would not be seen as "chickening out" if Pentax offered it in the same price range as the Canon 7D. Sensor prices have come way down.
3. APS-H will work much better with legacy K-mount and DA* lenses.

RonHendriks1966 · 05-22-2013, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by normhead

I'm guessing my DA* 60-250 would, and that would be worth a ton.

I think the profit would be in the excisting lenses that would perform well on a bigger sensor then aps-c, but would go down on a FF.

Originally posted by rawr

In considering the options for FF, I like DxoMark's rough classification of photographer usage scenarios: Portrait (colour depth) - Landscape (dynamic range) - Sports (low-light). (one should probably add to the Sports category high fps and awesome AF). But it would be nice indeed, and probably not impossible, to see maybe two new Pentax FF's - a D4/Canon 1Dx competitor for Ron, and a D600 clone for the rest of us.

Well Pentax is not yet ready to enter the sportsmarket, but it can still put good specs in a camera where you (and I) can do still a lot with in a variety off workingplaces.

Originally posted by rawr

The D4 does 11 fps vs the D800's 4 or 6 and the D600's 5.5, so it's a significant step above.
All of this of course highlights the big job ahead of Pentax. Just changing the sensor size won't really impress anyone unless there are other tech smarts included in the product.

Well the difference in hi-performing camera's for sports (fast framerate and less pixels to get the workload done) and for studio/landscape (lots off pixels for hi details) is huge when it comes to the electronics. I don't expect Pentax to enter in on the superfast framerate race.

Originally posted by Fogel70

And to make full use of this sensor format Pentax would need to start with designing at least a few dedicated zoom lenses for it. And Pentax can forget to get better support from third party lens designer if the choose to use APS-H sensors.
If Pentax is to make APS-H sensor cameras they will need to show the same dedication to this format as they have shown on APS-C. So then we can forget FF for another 10-15 years. The only reason I see for APS-H is if FF for some magical reason would not be possible to use on K-mount cameras, so APS-H would be a replacement for FF.

As for FF and aps-H there is a need for new lenses in the wide-angle range. I think the FA31mm is shortest lens to work on either off them. Choosing aps-h would probably mean that a FF won't be around the corner. On the other hand when it is a great camera no-one will ask for it anymore.

Originally posted by jogiba

A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go.

Originally posted by NickLarsson

Please also add an APS-H mode for Ron so everybody is gonna be happy

Originally posted by normhead

I think we're missing the point of APS-c H. it would be to make use of existing FF lenses with the addition of shake reduction. If in fact the Pentax shake reduction system cannot be used with an FF sensor, (and that has yet to be determined), then going to APS-h might allow one to use all those FA lens on a closer to FF system. It's a bit of a reach either way, and no one really knows what the exact situation. Based on my own work, I'm guessing APS-h might allow me to use my DA*60-250 even, and that would be fantastic.

APS-H should be part off a positive choice. Stand out with your own system.

Originally posted by Winder

1. People have the option of shooting at reduced resolution in JPEG.
2. APS-H would not be seen as "chickening out" if Pentax offered it in the same price range as the Canon 7D. Sensor prices have come way down.
3. APS-H will work much better with legacy K-mount and DA* lenses.

A Pentax APS-H sensor should come in a top-off-the-line Pentax camera that should be better then other top-camera's like 7D (or when it ever comes a D400).

ElJamoquio · 05-22-2013, 08:42 AM

Ricoh's stated they want to be a major manufacturer. Right now the majority of the non-APS-C stuff is FF. APS-H would be inferior competition.

If they put out a APS-H to compete with APS-C, and used a 645 sensor to compete with FF, that would be a winning strategy in my book, but the pricing would have to be competitive. Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians.

Kunzite · 05-22-2013, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians.

What he said.

rawr · 05-22-2013, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

What he said.

Agreed. If APS-H was the hardware, it would be confusing, and would probably be hard to market. Unless it was just a digital option, like the current APS-C shooting mode option with the D600 and D800.

RonHendriks1966 · 05-22-2013, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Ricoh's stated they want to be a major manufacturer. Right now the majority of the non-APS-C stuff is FF. APS-H would be inferior competition.

If they put out a APS-H to compete with APS-C, and used a 645 sensor to compete with FF, that would be a winning strategy in my book, but the pricing would have to be competitive. Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians.

I'm not completely shure about this. When Canon brings out an APS-H 1D Mark V with 18 megapixel, I don't think they will sell a single 1Dx anymore.

This was the 1D Mark IV from 2009:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS1DMarkIV/Samples/timings/JPEG.mp3

But for me the aps-h would be the better camera to the aps-c camera line!

Kunzite · 05-22-2013, 10:03 AM

Canon had an APS-H professional camera, but they gave up on that format - going full "FF". What were you saying?

RonHendriks1966 · 05-22-2013, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Canon had an APS-H professional camera, but they gave up on that format - going full "FF". What were you saying?

I'm talking about the users for these expensive sportscamera's, they do want sometimes a different thing then Canon offers. The market for this segment isn't aparently not big enough for the 1D and 1Ds series, but when the choice was there a lot off the sportsphotographers would choose the aps-h above the ff.

05-22-2013, 09:44 AM	#43
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675 Original Poster	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Ricoh's stated they want to be a major manufacturer. Right now the majority of the non-APS-C stuff is FF. APS-H would be inferior competition. If they put out a APS-H to compete with APS-C, and used a 645 sensor to compete with FF, that would be a winning strategy in my book, but the pricing would have to be competitive. Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians. I'm not completely shure about this. When Canon brings out an APS-H 1D Mark V with 18 megapixel, I don't think they will sell a single 1Dx anymore. This was the 1D Mark IV from 2009: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS1DMarkIV/Samples/timings/JPEG.mp3 But for me the aps-h would be the better camera to the aps-c camera line! Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 05-22-2013 at 09:56 AM.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Where to get start when it comes to learning "the how"	jtkratzer	Troubleshooting and Beginner Help	44	07-22-2012 04:43 PM
What comes to mind when...	Clicker	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	6	02-17-2012 07:48 PM
Is it really worth upgrading *Ist DS to K-r in term of Image Quality	fgpinarli	Pentax K-r	16	03-01-2011 06:09 AM
KX in camera noise reduction shut it off to improve image quality	jlaubza	Pentax DSLR Discussion	14	04-27-2010 01:11 PM
when it comes to Flash, I'm a real Dummie	racinsince55	Flashes, Lighting, and Studio	5	12-29-2007 12:29 PM

05-15-2013, 12:28 AM	#31
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	I don't see much point for Pentax making cameras with APS-H sensors. And to make full use of this sensor format Pentax would need to start with designing at least a few dedicated zoom lenses for it. Wide and normal FF zooms do not work very well on APS-H as they will limit FOV to much. Pentax would need something like 18-55mm and 11-18mm APS-H lenses to replicate FF 24-70mm and 14-24mm lenses. And Pentax can forget to get better support from third party lens designer if the choose to use APS-H sensors. If Pentax is to make APS-H sensor cameras they will need to show the same dedication to this format as they have shown on APS-C. So then we can forget FF for another 10-15 years.The only reason I see for APS-H is if FF for some magical reason would not be possible to use on K-mount cameras, so APS-H would be a replacement for FF. Choosing APS-H over FF will probably not make cameras much cheaper for Pentax, but it would be easy to implement several crop modes in a FF cameras to better support APS-C lenses. Last edited by Fogel70; 05-15-2013 at 01:10 AM.

05-15-2013, 08:06 AM	#32
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go.

05-15-2013, 08:43 AM - 1 Like	#33
NickLarsson Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Paris, France Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,390	Originally posted by jogiba A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go. Please also add an APS-H mode for Ron so everybody is gonna be happy

05-16-2013, 02:31 PM	#34
ipemc New Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 8	I complettely agree! A FF camera with APS-H and APS-C and different formats (5:4, 4:3)would be great. If is not possible to get the SR in FF working it would probably do in APS-H size. The only thing it can NOT happen ist to give up PK mount.

05-21-2013, 06:04 PM	#35
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by ipemc I complettely agree! A FF camera with APS-H and APS-C and different formats (5:4, 4:3)would be great. If is not possible to get the SR in FF working it would probably do in APS-H size. The only thing it can NOT happen ist to give up PK mount. Need square format or I will be very unhappy. And it should make sounds like kittens when it needs attention.

05-21-2013, 06:22 PM	#36
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,450	I think we're missing the point of APS-c H. it would be to make use of existing FF lenses with the addition of shake reduction. If in fact the Pentax shake reduction system cannot be used with an FF sensor, (and that has yet to be determined), then going to APS-h might allow one to use all those FA lens on a closer to FF system. It's a bit of a reach either way, and no one really knows what the exact situation. Based on my own work, I'm guessing APS-h might allow me to use my DA*60-250 even, and that would be fantastic. APS-c has the advantage of providing a larger sensor if Pentax Shake reduction is not FF compatible. If Pentax has to go to in lens image stabilization to make FF work on a k-mount and you have to turn off SR to use your 31 ltd....that becomes problematic. If you have to design all new FF lenses with more coverage to have SR work, then that as well becomes problematic. How about a 28 MP APS-h sensor as the solution? I'm not seeing what the downside is. You get closer to FF DoF, much more resolution and more sensor surface area, keeping all current FF lenses in play and some APS-c lens as well.

05-21-2013, 07:02 PM	#37
jcdoss Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Ingelheim am Rhein, Germany Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,757	Maybe FF, APS-C horizontal, APS-C vertical, and square crop formats? How do RAW files look when taken in crop modes? Also, how does the viewfinder work? Crop lines? And who changes the kitty litter?

05-21-2013, 08:07 PM	#38
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by topace There are absolutely D800 users who don't like the file size or the in-camera processing times. Another point to consider is that a 36MP sensor will be very unforgiving towards lenses. The 16 MP APS-C sensors have this problem to, since they have the same pixel size, but it's somewhat offset by the sweet spot advantage. As for FF vs APS-H, I would very likely buy either if it was the next Pentax Flagship, but I would somewhat regard an APS-H product as chickening out of a true commitment, and I'm afraid that the market would see it much the same. 1. People have the option of shooting at reduced resolution in JPEG. 2. APS-H would not be seen as "chickening out" if Pentax offered it in the same price range as the Canon 7D. Sensor prices have come way down. 3. APS-H will work much better with legacy K-mount and DA* lenses.

05-22-2013, 08:30 AM	#39
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675 Original Poster	Originally posted by normhead I'm guessing my DA* 60-250 would, and that would be worth a ton. I think the profit would be in the excisting lenses that would perform well on a bigger sensor then aps-c, but would go down on a FF. Originally posted by rawr In considering the options for FF, I like DxoMark's rough classification of photographer usage scenarios: Portrait (colour depth) - Landscape (dynamic range) - Sports (low-light). (one should probably add to the Sports category high fps and awesome AF). But it would be nice indeed, and probably not impossible, to see maybe two new Pentax FF's - a D4/Canon 1Dx competitor for Ron, and a D600 clone for the rest of us. Well Pentax is not yet ready to enter the sportsmarket, but it can still put good specs in a camera where you (and I) can do still a lot with in a variety off workingplaces. Originally posted by rawr The D4 does 11 fps vs the D800's 4 or 6 and the D600's 5.5, so it's a significant step above. All of this of course highlights the big job ahead of Pentax. Just changing the sensor size won't really impress anyone unless there are other tech smarts included in the product. Well the difference in hi-performing camera's for sports (fast framerate and less pixels to get the workload done) and for studio/landscape (lots off pixels for hi details) is huge when it comes to the electronics. I don't expect Pentax to enter in on the superfast framerate race. Originally posted by Fogel70 And to make full use of this sensor format Pentax would need to start with designing at least a few dedicated zoom lenses for it. And Pentax can forget to get better support from third party lens designer if the choose to use APS-H sensors. If Pentax is to make APS-H sensor cameras they will need to show the same dedication to this format as they have shown on APS-C. So then we can forget FF for another 10-15 years. The only reason I see for APS-H is if FF for some magical reason would not be possible to use on K-mount cameras, so APS-H would be a replacement for FF. As for FF and aps-H there is a need for new lenses in the wide-angle range. I think the FA31mm is shortest lens to work on either off them. Choosing aps-h would probably mean that a FF won't be around the corner. On the other hand when it is a great camera no-one will ask for it anymore. Originally posted by jogiba A full frame with both FF and APS-C modes would be the way to go. Originally posted by NickLarsson Please also add an APS-H mode for Ron so everybody is gonna be happy Originally posted by normhead I think we're missing the point of APS-c H. it would be to make use of existing FF lenses with the addition of shake reduction. If in fact the Pentax shake reduction system cannot be used with an FF sensor, (and that has yet to be determined), then going to APS-h might allow one to use all those FA lens on a closer to FF system. It's a bit of a reach either way, and no one really knows what the exact situation. Based on my own work, I'm guessing APS-h might allow me to use my DA60-250 even, and that would be fantastic. APS-H should be part off a positive choice. Stand out with your own system. Originally posted by Winder 1. People have the option of shooting at reduced resolution in JPEG. 2. APS-H would not be seen as "chickening out" if Pentax offered it in the same price range as the Canon 7D. Sensor prices have come way down. 3. APS-H will work much better with legacy K-mount and DA lenses. A Pentax APS-H sensor should come in a top-off-the-line Pentax camera that should be better then other top-camera's like 7D (or when it ever comes a D400).

05-22-2013, 08:42 AM	#40
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Ricoh's stated they want to be a major manufacturer. Right now the majority of the non-APS-C stuff is FF. APS-H would be inferior competition. If they put out a APS-H to compete with APS-C, and used a 645 sensor to compete with FF, that would be a winning strategy in my book, but the pricing would have to be competitive. Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

05-22-2013, 09:15 AM	#41
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Putting APS-H against FF will not impress the potentially-new-Pentaxians. What he said.

05-22-2013, 09:35 AM	#42
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Kunzite What he said. Agreed. If APS-H was the hardware, it would be confusing, and would probably be hard to market. Unless it was just a digital option, like the current APS-C shooting mode option with the D600 and D800.

05-22-2013, 10:03 AM	#44
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Canon had an APS-H professional camera, but they gave up on that format - going full "FF". What were you saying?

05-22-2013, 11:00 AM	#45
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kunzite Canon had an APS-H professional camera, but they gave up on that format - going full "FF". What were you saying? I'm talking about the users for these expensive sportscamera's, they do want sometimes a different thing then Canon offers. The market for this segment isn't aparently not big enough for the 1D and 1Ds series, but when the choice was there a lot off the sportsphotographers would choose the aps-h above the ff.