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05-22-2013, 11:12 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I'm talking about the users for these expensive sportscamera's, they do want sometimes a different thing then Canon offers. The market for this segment isn't aparently not big enough for the 1D and 1Ds series, but when the choice was there a lot off the sportsphotographers would choose the aps-h above the ff.
Photographers didn't make that choice, their employers did. The APS-H Canon's were offered at a bureau discount with the same warranty and service policy a FF. The whole point of APS-H was it allowed media bureaus the ability to keep their big lens investments but get a close enough sensor format (and a little more reach) without breaking the bank. Canon kept big league customers and offered a decent margin camera without having to overtool for FF. Now they don't news APS-H as CMOS fabs are set. APS-H is dodo dead.

05-22-2013, 11:12 AM   #47
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Pentax has a long ways to go before their autofocus can make up for the deficiencies in sensor size.
05-22-2013, 12:17 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I'm talking about the users for these expensive sportscamera's, they do want sometimes a different thing then Canon offers. The market for this segment isn't aparently not big enough for the 1D and 1Ds series, but when the choice was there a lot off the sportsphotographers would choose the aps-h above the ff.
But they happily migrated towards the 1Dx, or the Nikon D4, didn't they?
Why are you thinking they found advantages into the slightly cropped format, and not in the other characteristics, which 1D series had but 1Ds had not - i.e. speed and price? The 1Dx and the D4 are FF cameras which makes the 1D series unnecessary.
05-22-2013, 12:53 PM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But they happily migrated towards the 1Dx, or the Nikon D4, didn't they?
Why are you thinking they found advantages into the slightly cropped format, and not in the other characteristics, which 1D series had but 1Ds had not - i.e. speed and price? The 1Dx and the D4 are FF cameras which makes the 1D series unnecessary.
The crop makes working a little more fun.

1D Mark IV with 300mm/f2.8 gives you about the same working image as 1Dx with 400mm/f2.8!

In sportsphotography that is important.

05-22-2013, 02:40 PM   #50
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I am sure a cropped image from a full frame shot is about the same as one from a smaller APS-H sensor if you needed a 1.3x magnification.
05-27-2013, 01:54 AM   #51
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Pentax could already implement pseudo APS-H, by making use of the SR system. SR shifts the sensor 3mm in every direction. That would give an APS-C sensor (28.4mm x 23.7mm) a total area of 34.4mm x 29.7mm. Just a bit bigger then Canon's APS-H. This is viable, because Hasselblad already makes use of such technology. A feature with obvious limits, but still with lots of applications. And with the same technology, a Pentax with an APS-H sensor could achieve pseudo FF.
05-27-2013, 09:01 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax could already implement pseudo APS-H, by making use of the SR system. SR shifts the sensor 3mm in every direction. That would give an APS-C sensor (28.4mm x 23.7mm) a total area of 34.4mm x 29.7mm. Just a bit bigger then Canon's APS-H. This is viable, because Hasselblad already makes use of such technology. A feature with obvious limits, but still with lots of applications. And with the same technology, a Pentax with an APS-H sensor could achieve pseudo FF.
K-5 APS-C is 23.7x15.7. Your idea would Give 29.7x21.7, which is an aspect ratio of about 4/3 and a crop factor of about 1.16. So that would be a big help IQ wise; but perhaps would only work with slow moving subjects.
05-27-2013, 09:54 AM   #53
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So what Pentax should do here, would be the largest system they can use that still incorporates SR and will make use of their FF lenses. I don't think there's much doubt that if the SR needs 39mm to implement a 36 mm sensor size, then that's not an option. Selling me an FF camera means total functionality on an FA 31 Ltd, my Sigma 70 macro, my Tamron 90 macro, and my FA 50 1.7 and A-400. SO for me Pentax FF would have to be 32 mm or less, to employ SR. If that were done then all the lenses that have currently test out on 35mm film cameras would also work, (meaning I could use my 35 2.4). If they wanted to go 29.7, I'm not going to complain about 2.3mm. If I can't use FA and A lenses with shake reduction, I won't be buying. A custom sensor size is almost a given, because Pentax is the only company using in camera shake reduction.

With sensor sizes already starting to push the functionality of APS-c, squeezing every last drop out of what they have is important and increasing sensor size from 23.7 by 15.7 to say 32x21 would be huge, in terms of keeping Pentax relevant through the next round of MP upgrades. At least my rough understanding of how this is playing out is that after 40 MP as a theoretical max, (so maybe 30 MP as a practical max) APS-c is pretty much toast in terms of the limits of difraction, if you want to shoot anything over 5.6. Increasing the sensor size is the only way to go. And to my way of thinking, they need to go as large as the can maintaining the unique Pentax SR. From info in this thread it would look that would be about 32x21mm.

05-27-2013, 02:22 PM   #54
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QuoteQuote:
A custom sensor size is almost a given, because Pentax is the only company using in camera shake reduction.
The full frame Sony A99 features built-in sensor shift image stabilization just like the APS-C A line.
05-27-2013, 02:28 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So what Pentax should do here, would be the largest system they can use that still incorporates SR and will make use of their FF lenses. I don't think there's much doubt that if the SR needs 39mm to implement a 36 mm sensor size, then that's not an option.
The whole 3mm of SR is a big misunderstanding, as the movement needed is much less than that. On a 24MP FF sensor I would say 50-100 pixels blur is what 4 stops SR need to handle. If max 4 pixels blur is accepted as sharp image, then 8 pixels is 1 stop correction, 16 pixels 2 stops correction, 32 pixels 3 stops, and 64 pixels 4 stops. 24MP FF = 6000 x 4000 pixels, 36mm / 6000 = 0.006 mm pixel size. 64 pixels x 0.006mm = 0.384 mm. But I'm not sure 4 pixel blur can be accepted as sharp enough.

If 3mm (500 pixels on 24MP FF) is 4 stops of SR correction, then 31 pixels blur would be accepted as sharp, but I doubt anyone would accept that.
05-27-2013, 03:47 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The full frame Sony A99 features built-in sensor shift image stabilization just like the APS-C A line.
And what lenses designed for Pentax equipment does it accept? I'd even accept a lens that works on Pentax equipment like the Sigma 70 macro.

Hey, I'm all for Pentax releasing an FF, but if for some reason they can't go that large with existing lenses, then I'd like the largest sensor that will work. Legacy functionality is worth more than buying all new lenses, especially if the new lenses have to be OS. There's a difference in cost.

05-28-2013, 12:08 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
K-5 APS-C is 23.7x15.7. Your idea would Give 29.7x21.7, which is an aspect ratio of about 4/3 and a crop factor of about 1.16. So that would be a big help IQ wise; but perhaps would only work with slow moving subjects.
Oops! Yes, I took the diagonal.

Yes, I assume it only works with completely static or almost static subjects.

But that does have its use in architechture, landscapes, product photografy, and even co÷perative models.
05-28-2013, 02:41 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The APS-H Canon's were offered at a bureau discount with the same warranty and service policy a FF. The whole point of APS-H was it allowed media bureaus the ability to keep their big lens investments but get a close enough sensor format (and a little more reach) without breaking the bank.
Good point, and with the Pentax 645D cat is out of the bag there is little point in Pentax trying to appease the bean counters. If we encourage pentax to come out with an APS-H camera we are only encouraging mediocrity, wasting resources that can be better used to coming out with an actual solution instead of a half-arsed stop-gap solution that does nothing more than prolong the demise of the company. It is FF or bust.

If people are really determined to save money on their cameras there, is no reason why they should be forced to "upgrade". Pentax can continue to produce their excellent line of APS-C cameras and lenses - and people will buy them.

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The whole 3mm of SR is a big misunderstanding, as the movement needed is much less than that.
Correct - in my disassembly of my K10D, I noticed the amount of travel allowed by the SR system, and many people have been misquoting that distance saying that it means that a full frame Pentax DSLR would be physically impossible - because K mount lenses don't produce image circles big enough. Big surprise: most of them do, actually.

Last edited by Digitalis; 05-28-2013 at 03:01 AM.
05-28-2013, 02:49 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
It is FF or bust.
QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Pentax can continue to produce their excellent line of APS-C cameras and lenses - and people will buy them.
Don't these two contradict?
05-28-2013, 03:08 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Don't these two contradict?
It depends if you read my whole post instead of skim reading it. In all probability amateur photographers aren't all going to buy FF cameras - especially if there is a cheaper APS-C camera available that has excellent, compact lenses like the DA limited lenses to use on it. But professionals like me are going to be more interested in the FF and 645D cameras because of the FA limited lenses and the legacy glass we have. Pentax would survive longer as a company if they offered both APS-C and FF cameras - with the 645D at the apex.
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