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08-11-2013, 04:01 AM   #91
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Well, couldn't Ricoh also try to be innovative?

I think a good move would be to offer a mirrorless camera with a sensor which is larger than FF. 20% would do it already.
Everybody here is saying they need to build new lenses anyhow. Then why not make lenses with a image circle a little larger than FF.
Boom you would have a clear marketing differentiator and anyone offering a FF mirrorless suddenly looks dumb. It would also turn all those sensor discussion upside down.

Then they can offer a fully working adapter for the small FF lenses and offer autocrop mode.

08-11-2013, 08:06 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well somewhere between aps-c and FF there is some magical sized sensor
you lost me the instant you used the term "magical"....they said 645 format was the goldilocks ratio - the same can be said for 4X5 and 8x10
08-11-2013, 08:30 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
you lost me the instant you used the term "magical"....they said 645 format was the goldilocks ratio - the same can be said for 4X5 and 8x10
I thought 6x7 was the perfect ratio? I guess it depends on who is trying to sell what camera at what point in history.


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08-11-2013, 08:33 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Well, couldn't Ricoh also try to be innovative?

I think a good move would be to offer a mirrorless camera with a sensor which is larger than FF. 20% would do it already.
Everybody here is saying they need to build new lenses anyhow. Then why not make lenses with a image circle a little larger than FF.
Boom you would have a clear marketing differentiator and anyone offering a FF mirrorless suddenly looks dumb. It would also turn all those sensor discussion upside down.

Then they can offer a fully working adapter for the small FF lenses and offer autocrop mode.
But this couln't work on K-mount or am I wrong?

Can you acoomodate a larger then FF sensor inside a K-mount camera that can be served with new lenses, while old lenses just cover the "old" FF size off the sensor?

08-11-2013, 08:35 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
you lost me the instant you used the term "magical"....
Then I should have mentioned the aps-h sooner, since in marketingterm I lost my client even before my message was send out.
08-11-2013, 12:01 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But this couln't work on K-mount or am I wrong?
No. Not necessary either. As the flange distance changes/shortens, you need an adapter anyway for K mount lenses. They could offer a new larger diameter K+ mount to go with the new lenses.

If your adapter provides full functionality and speed that's not even an issue. Best of both worlds with significant marketing advantage.
08-11-2013, 02:37 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But this couln't work on K-mount or am I wrong?

Can you acoomodate a larger then FF sensor inside a K-mount camera that can be served with new lenses, while old lenses just cover the "old" FF size off the sensor?
Yes, I think it would be possible, but the size of the mount would limit aperture size, so it would not be possible to design as fast lenses for the larger sensor size.
And you can't use DSLR design as there will not be enough room for the mirror.

But I don't think it's very smart using a non-standard sensor size, as it will make the sensors much more expensive as it has to be a custom design for Pentax, and it might be hard to find someone to manufacture the sensors. Using 20% larger sensor size might lead to 2-3 times the manufacturing cost on the camera.

Last edited by Fogel70; 08-11-2013 at 02:51 PM.
08-11-2013, 03:59 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Yes, I think it would be possible, but the size of the mount would limit aperture size, so it would not be possible to design as fast lenses for the larger sensor size.
And you can't use DSLR design as there will not be enough room for the mirror.

But I don't think it's very smart using a non-standard sensor size, as it will make the sensors much more expensive as it has to be a custom design for Pentax, and it might be hard to find someone to manufacture the sensors. Using 20% larger sensor size might lead to 2-3 times the manufacturing cost on the camera.
So how fast would those lense be? Does it mean that f4 is a max of is even f2.8 possible.

Lets say the sensor would be 40x30mm:
- K-mount
- old K-mount lenses using 36x24mm
- new K+-mount lenses for using the larger sensorsize
- DA-aps-c lenses using the smaller size of the sensor
- no mirror inside the box

This would make it a mini medium format camera!

Yes this wouldn't be the cheapest camera. But one offering something very unique. Not to many new lenses needed, but some key specials:
- 90mm portrait lens
- 30-90mm standard zoomlens
- 80-160mm telelens
- 120mm macrolens
- 35mm T+S lens
- 24mm wide angle lens (or 24-36mm zoom)
- fast 50mm "normal" lens


Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 08-11-2013 at 04:31 PM.
08-11-2013, 04:12 PM   #99
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A larger sensor (than 24x36) generally requires a longer lens-mount to sensor distance, or the angle of light rays to the outer edges cause the "red edge" syndrome that the Leica M digitals still fight. The new M uses a shallow-well sensor to help the situation, but users are finding the problem is at least as bad as the M9 with its shifted microlenses.
The K mount has longer distance than the Leica M mount, but a larger sensor would be difficult.
08-11-2013, 04:48 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So how fast would those lense be? Does it mean that f4 is a max of is even f2.8 possible.

Lets say the sensor would be 40x30mm:
- K-mount
- old K-mount lenses using 36x24mm
- new K+-mount lenses for using the larger sensorsize
- DA-aps-c lenses using the smaller size of the sensor
- no mirror inside the box

This would make it a mini medium format camera!

Yes this wouldn't be the cheapest camera. But one offering something very unique. Not to many new lenses needed, but some key specials:
- 90mm portrait lens
- 30-90mm standard zoomlens
- 120mm macrolens
- 35mm T+S lens
- 24mm wide angle lens
Why not use the same sensor as in 645D (44x33mm) and sell it for $500 less than 645D? The sensor used in 645D might be cheaper than a new custom made 40x30mm sensor only used by Pentax.

But I doubt many existing K-mount user would be interested in a camera like this, as the price will be too high on both the camera and lenses. For most user FF are more then enough they need already.
08-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by TomB_tx Quote
A larger sensor (than 24x36) generally requires a longer lens-mount to sensor distance, or the angle of light rays to the outer edges cause the "red edge" syndrome that the Leica M digitals still fight. The new M uses a shallow-well sensor to help the situation, but users are finding the problem is at least as bad as the M9 with its shifted microlenses.
The K mount has longer distance than the Leica M mount, but a larger sensor would be difficult.
So now I'm babbeling, since I don't know how it works, but in general does logical thinking helps you one step a head.

So when I look at the focal flange distance off camera's and their sensor with:
Flange focal distance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Then it is logical that the M-mount has some serious issues when it comes to corners or wide angle, since they have a short distance from lens to sensor and a large sensor. As would be to expected to give trouble to the Sony E-mount when a FF is coming. So when there would be any kind off constant in it (and why wouldn't it since it is a science thingy) then there is something in the width off the mount, the diameter off the sensor, the distance between sensor and lens.

When Sony can make a FF E-mount, then with K-mount one could go larger.
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