Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
05-01-2013, 03:10 PM   #46
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
But you said that "MILC has already won", and this IMO implies emotional attachment. You also made strong statements - "in 10 years all cameras will be mirrorless". What's wrong with having choices?
And by the way, you can't get the same functionality; you don't care about the DSLR's defining feature (it's optical reflex viewing system), but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

05-01-2013, 03:12 PM   #47
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,423
QuoteOriginally posted by konraDarnok Quote
if you can get the same functionality cheaper.
When you can get the same functionality cheaper MILC may replace SLR - but not before you can get the same functionality cheaper. Which you emphatically cannot yet. And might not ever.
05-01-2013, 03:20 PM   #48
Pentaxian
konraDarnok's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Photos: Albums
Posts: 962
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
But you said that "MILC has already won", and this IMO implies emotional attachment. You also made strong statements - "in 10 years all cameras will be mirrorless". What's wrong with having choices?
And by the way, you can't get the same functionality; you don't care about the DSLR's defining feature (it's optical reflex viewing system), but that doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
No, it doesn't imply emotional attachment. You're projecting your emotions upon my statements because you don't like what I'm saying. And there's nothing wrong with choices, but the market doesn't have to provide you with choices. They are going to produce what has the best profit margin, and it's a lot cheaper to design, build, and support a mirrorless camera than an SLR. It's just that simple. SLRs were designed to solve problems with exposing film, well there is no more film. It's gone. In some respect the modern SLR is like a laser turntable.

I'm sure the SLR will live on in some form, just like digital range finders do, but it's going to esoteric, and there's plenty of designs that never made into the digital world and never will.

Last edited by konraDarnok; 05-01-2013 at 03:26 PM.
05-01-2013, 03:39 PM   #49
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
Currently, the DSLRs outsells MILCs by 4:1 (a thing MILC fans are constantly ignoring), with no sign of change in the short range. Tell me, should the "market" (actually, camera makers) continue providing us with DSLRs? Or they should rather go with cheap, low end MILCs?

You might believe it yourself, but I don't buy that you're emotionally detached. You definitely aren't resuming to purely objective claims

05-01-2013, 08:34 PM   #50
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney
Photos: Albums
Posts: 232
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
DSLRs outsells MILCs by 4:1 (a thing MILC fans are constantly ignoring)
There is no doubt a lot of pros and non pros prefer DSLR format. I bought Pentax because of its size and other offerings. I doubt i will get anything bulkier and heavier though i have medium size hands (size 8).
It is interesting to see the trend of the camera market over the next few years. I think Fuji and Sony are the two companies that will come up with FF mirror less before others. Olympus will continue M4/3 and i doubt it will ever go FF and Pentax... sigh.... maybe always at the concept or research phase.
05-01-2013, 11:40 PM   #51
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
Sony is the most likely to launch a NEX FF (after all, they already did it - although in a different format). Fuji would need a new mount, I guess...
05-01-2013, 11:44 PM   #52
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,122
QuoteOriginally posted by Bestzoom Quote
and Pentax... sigh.... maybe always at the concept or research phase.
They've set themselves up for a big dissappointment allright. After more then a decade of R&D the Pentax FF is going to have to be ultra futuristic and perfect to prevent that.
05-02-2013, 01:26 AM - 1 Like   #53
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,122
People seem to ignore the simple fact that there are lots of different tools for lots of different jobs. Does every hammer have to be suitable for each and every job too? When I open my toolbox I have several shapes an sizes of hammers, so I'm guessing the answer is: "No". Is a demolition hammer suitable for carpenting: "No". Nevertheless, the market does need a demolition hammer. Is there a huge market for lead-hammers to hammer away at your wheel-trims? Again: "No!", but the market needs them regardless. Is a mirrorless FF with an EVF suitable for sports photography? Maybe not, but the market still needs one, because it has it's own advantages. None of the two are better then the other, both are best suitable for their own purposes.

And an OVF isn't suddenly going to make Pentax the best and most suitable tool for sports photography. (The most popular argument against MILC/EVF.) Sports photography is what Canon and Nikon DSLRs are best suitable for, with their blazing fast and highly accurate AF. You can do it with a Pentax, but with the slow AF it simply isn't the ideal tool. Pentax, with their backwards compatibility, would be smarter to cater to the needs of all those manual glass users that they have. An excellent EVF with peak focussing should be highly valued by their users. But even with AF & quick shift, peak focussing can do magic.


Now... FF MILC vs FF DSLR:

How many FF DSLRs are there to choose from currently? (Including discontinued on the used market.) 22! Of which 6 currently still available new:

Canon EOS 5D (2005)
Canon EOS 5D Mark II (2008)
Canon EOS 5D Mark III (2012)
Canon EOS 6D (17 September 2012)
Canon EOS-1D X (2012)
Canon EOS-1Ds (2002)
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II (2004)
Canon EOS-1Ds Mark III (2007)
Contax N Digital (2002)
Kodak DCS Pro 14n (2003)
Kodak DCS Pro SLR/c (2004)
Kodak DCS Pro SLR/n (2004)
Nikon D3 (2007)
Nikon D3S (2009)
Nikon D3X (2008)
Nikon D4 (2012)
Nikon D600 (13 September 2012)
Nikon D700 (2008)
Nikon D800 (2012)
Sony a DSLR-A850 (2009)
Sony a DSLR-A900 (2008)
Sony a SLT-A99 (12 September 2012)
(Am I forgetting any?)

And how many FF MILCs are there for us to choose from? 0! None. Nothing. Nada.

[cynical]
Oh yes, Pentax please issue another (me-too) FF DSLR and pray to the heavens that it will make a dent a slight smudge in the existing fully established FF market. That sounds like a terrific plan! (Maybe Pentax should scream "BANZAAAAIII!!" when they launch it?) And forget about getting ahead, and being first at something agian. Who cares about the future anyway?
[/cynical]


Last edited by Clavius; 05-02-2013 at 02:19 AM.
05-02-2013, 03:11 AM   #54
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
They've set themselves up for a big dissappointment allright. After more then a decade of R&D the Pentax FF is going to have to be ultra futuristic and perfect to prevent that.
You mean, no matter what Pentax will do you will be disappointed? Then, why don't you jump ship already?

A FF camera doesn't have to be "the best and most suitable tool for sports photography"; that's the spot reserved for pro-level monsters like the 1 series and the D3/D4. It's not like 80%+ of the photographers are shooting sports (the rest being MILC users).
An enthusiast level Pentax FF DSLR is perfectly feasible, and it would serve to push the K-mount system one step or two higher. There are many advantages in having a system spawning across multiple level cameras, and a shared pool of lenses (a fact you're constantly ignoring).

All right, where can I buy the Contax N? I'll trust you it's still a competitive camera, because it would not make any sense to count cameras better suited to museums; I'll also trust you that Leica never made any FF "MILC" (well, it's a rangefinder, but close enough). OK, maybe I won't
By the way, Sony's SLTs are not DSLRs. Cut that, cut everything that's too old, take market segmentation into account, relative sizes of the DSLR and MILC markets - and things would change dramatically.

It's curious how you're not following on the FF NEX rumor (and move to Sony forums, since it's so much more likely to become reality). The imaginary 1 FF MILC system would have a hard time competing with a well-established NEX system.
Contrary to your claims, competing with Canon and Nikon might be easier - much easier.
05-02-2013, 03:58 AM - 1 Like   #55
Pentaxian
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,122
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You mean, no matter what Pentax will do you will be disappointed? Then, why don't you jump ship already?
No, I'm the fool that's buying almost any new Pentax camera that hits the market, remember?


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
All right, where can I buy the Contax N? I'll trust you it's still a competitive camera, because it would not make any sense to count cameras better suited to museums;
Didn't I indicate myself that I pasted a list of all FF DSLRs, including the obsolete ones? And didn't I already state myself that 6 of those are currently available new? Did you forget to read that? Or read it an bitch about it anyways?


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'll also trust you that Leica never made any FF "MILC" (well, it's a rangefinder, but close enough).
Classic Rangefinders are not mirrorless, in fact, they use multiple mirrors.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sony's SLTs are not DSLRs. Cut that
They are not mirrorless cameras, Kunzite. The image in the viewfinder is reflected from the mirror in front of the sensor. It just doesn't bounce and cause blurring, so they are on the right path.

The major advantage of mirrorless cameras:






QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
cut everything that's too old, take market segmentation into account, relative sizes of the DSLR and MILC markets - and things would change dramatically.
Yes? If you cut up all reality is there then suddenly an affordable FF MILC on the market? Where can I buy one? There still is 0 of those on the market.


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It's curious how you're not following on the FF NEX rumor (and move to Sony forums, since it's so much more likely to become reality).
Who says I'm not? Oh, you mean it's either way? Are you making this some kind of war, like I'm either one of the Indians or Cowboys?!? LOL!


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The imaginary 1 FF MILC system would have a hard time competing with a well-established NEX system.
Didn't you say the mirrorless segment isn't doing all that well? And now you say it's well-estabished?!?


QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Contrary to your claims, competing with Canon and Nikon might be easier - much easier.
Yes, competing with only one big competitor (Sony) in a new and open market is more difficult then competing with two even bigger competitors (Canon and Nikon) which they dominate and satisfy completely. Dream on, Kunzite...

Last edited by Clavius; 05-02-2013 at 05:23 AM.
05-02-2013, 05:24 AM   #56
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney
Photos: Albums
Posts: 232
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sony is the most likely to launch a NEX FF
Agree. Especially after RX1 has come to the scene....
Just imagine a Sony NEX FF for 2K plus Zeiss prime for 1.5 K (Touit for Fuji priced at AUS1500), the combo is more expensive than RX1.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Fuji would need a new mount, I guess...
I am rather surprised by Zeiss move in investing in Touit lenses - for APSc and at a premium. Maybe Zeiss believes Fuji may not go FF.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'll also trust you that Leica never made any FF "MILC" (well, it's a rangefinder, but close enough). OK, maybe I won't
If you are a Leica user, you would know M9 - Leica first FF rangefinder (mirror less) has been the turning point for the company. Otherwise it would have gone under years ago..

Last edited by Bestzoom; 05-02-2013 at 06:06 AM.
05-02-2013, 05:40 AM   #57
Senior Member




Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Sydney
Photos: Albums
Posts: 232
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Now... FF MILC vs FF DSLR:

How many FF DSLRs are there to choose from currently? (Including discontinued on the used market.) 22! Of which 6 currently still available new:
It will be hard for Pentax DSLR to compete against the entry level FF DSLR from Cani..n in term of price.


Pentax has tried hard... with K01, Q....
but only Pentax knows their sale figures vs those Sony NEX or Olympus MILC.
Maybe a Pentax FF mirror less can change things around.
05-02-2013, 06:36 AM - 1 Like   #58
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
No, I'm the fool that's buying almost any new Pentax camera that hits the market, remember?
What I'm saying is, stop being such a masochist and buy a camera you would like

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Didn't I indicate myself that I pasted a list of all FF DSLRs, including the obsolete ones? And didn't I already state myself that 6 of those are currently available new? Did you forget to read that? Or read it an bitch about it anyways?
And how are the oldest cameras from your list relevant, except as a history lesson? You forced the presence of every DSLR you could remember, just to artificially get a higher number.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Classic Rangefinders are not mirrorless, in fact, they use multiple mirrors.
I had a phone with integrated cameras, and it had a small mirror for taking self-pictures. And even the gloss surface of most LCDs can serve as a mirror...

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
They are not mirrorless cameras, Kunzite. The image in the viewfinder is reflected from the mirror in front of the sensor. It just doesn't bounce and cause blurring, so they are on the right path.
I never called them "mirrorless"; but they are not SLRs either.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
The major advantage of mirrorless cameras:
That's a made-up illustration, and not a real measurement. While mirror and shutter slap (the later completely ignored by Photozone's drawing) can potentially (and many times practically) degrade image quality, what's important is the real life impact.
I wouldn't call it "the major advantage of mirrorless cameras", though; many MILCs have inferior sensors, and are used in such unstable positions (viewing through LCDs) that mirror slap is actually preferable.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Yes? If you cut up all reality is there then suddenly an affordable FF MILC on the market? Where can I buy one? There still is 0 of those on the market.
Said the man who's trying to convince DSLRs users and the company known for inventing the Japanese SLR that MILCs are better.
You can buy the Sony NEX video camera; but it's a little bit more expensive than a D800; but that's not my point. You are ignoring everything but the idea that no FF MILC exists. Current vs. old technologies, market segmentation, relative market sizes are all parts of the reality you are ignoring.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Who says I'm not? Oh, you mean it's either way? Are you making this some kind of war, like I'm either one of the Indians or Cowboys?!? LOL!
Are you?

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Didn't you say the mirrorless segement isn't doing all that well? And now you say it's well-estabished?!?
I made neither of these statements, not like you're trying to "explain" them. What I said is that (regardless of how the MILC market is doing) Sony NEX is well established on this market (together with m4/3).

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Yes, competing with only one big competitor (Sony) in a new and open market is more difficult then competing with two even bigger competitors (Canon and Nikon) that they dominate and satisfy completely. Dream on, Kunzite...
Again you're ignoring anything but your extremely narrowed perspective. What if it's impossible unless they make an entire line, from APS-C to FF, in order to gain some economy of scale? They would compete with all the MILC makers, then; and you're ignoring this possibility. You're ignoring the relative sizes of the DSLR and MILC markets, calling the latter "new and open" - so it would appear more easy to compete in. You are the dreamer here.

QuoteOriginally posted by Bestzoom Quote
Maybe a Pentax FF mirror less can change things around.
So, if they don't succeed, they should try again with a more expensive product?
05-02-2013, 09:08 AM   #59
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
Thanks to all for this discussion about not only Pentax mirrorless, but the market as well. Very interesting comments.

This will probably get me in hot water but here goes:
a. My opinion is that K01 did not sell huge numbers of cameras, because...wait for it, Pentax did not build the best mirrorless camera they could. No cable port for the shutter, IR port off the front instead of the front and back, etc. Bracketing was limited, unnecessarily from what's available on a DSLR. Yet they still offered it at a high price. High price - crippled features - it was DOA.

b. Pentax isn't the only one. Nikon and Canon and even Sony did pretty much the same thing. The profit margin is higher on DSLRs so they all have been crippling features to force customers to buy dslrs if possible.

c. My premise is, if camera companies put their best effort into designing and making MILC, then they would be markedly better than they are today. I just checked the "latency" on my Nex 5n because of comments on this thread. I never noticed it before. Its there, but not objectionable for most shooting. What bothers me more is the slow speed of AF using contrast detect. The 5n is 2 years old, the latency can be improved with processing power, and they are working on the focus speed.

d. Focus Peaking is one of the coolest features to hit the camera market. To see the field of focus moving with the manual focus ring gives one a much better feel of how focus is affecting the composition. Without adequate contrast, it doesn't always show up, but when it does - wow.

e. Those camera companies that don't have DSLRs and therefore aren't crippling them, have some of the best designs out there, e.g. Olympus, Panasonic and Fuji.

f. Therefore, Pentax, if you're going to build another mirrorless, FF or not, don't cripple the dang thing.

g. One can see how the FF models are suppressing APSc dslr prices. the K5 came out at $1495, or was it higher. the k5ii was only $1295. not sure exactly and too lazy to look it up. but the trend is clear. some kind of FF is needed.

These kinds of discussions are just plain fun!!!

phil

Last edited by philbaum; 05-02-2013 at 09:19 AM.
05-02-2013, 09:24 AM   #60
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,313
QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Ta. My opinion is that K01 did not sell huge numbers of cameras, because...wait for it, Pentax did not build the best mirrorless camera they could.
I see it as a relatively low R&D cost project, where it was imperative to reuse as many DSLR components as possible (let's not forget it was developed while being prepared to be sold). IMO the concept is quite interesting, and maybe they could try again (by putting more effort into it).

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
c. My premise is, if camera companies put their best effort into designing and making MILC, then they would be markedly better than they are today.
Yeah, but should they do it, now? I'm talking about Canon, Nikon, Pentax; it's sacrificing the larger, more profitable market for the smaller, cost sensitive one.
Let the MILC makers do their best at making MILCs, and DSLR camera makers, at making DSLRs.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
full-frame, mirrorless, pentax, pentax mirrorless
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax's mirrorless strategy asw66 Pentax Mirrorless Cameras 155 12-30-2012 08:45 AM
A Pentax FF idea, a unique take on the FF market... theperception2008 Pentax DSLR Discussion 20 10-03-2012 01:07 PM
Re-cycling another Pentax FF rumour/FF rumor from A German photography magazine rawr Pentax Full Frame 73 09-19-2012 01:12 PM
Rumoured 3rd Pentax Mirrorless Tonto Pentax News and Rumors 4 04-14-2012 01:18 AM
Canon FF Mirrorless concept Clarkey Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 9 03-27-2012 03:05 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:00 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top