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05-02-2013, 06:20 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Outside of cameraphones the whole digicam industry is in overproduction right now, not just DSLR's.
Unless Canikon are establishing a massive barrier-to-entry inventory weapon in FF I fali to understand this suicidal business decision.

05-02-2013, 07:01 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Lies, damned lies and statistics. The statistics shown are meaningless and they show no sign of Nikon and Canon loosing grip on the market. The data groups totally different camera segments into one, but selectively so (which is cheating) in spite of all data and research showing that they are bought by different groups of people; mirrorless is not eroding into DSLR sales but P&S sales (Pentax said virtually the same thing last fall; DSLR are bought primarily by enthusiast whereas mirrorless is bought primarily by causual shooters). You could just as well include cell phone cameras into the data above "proving" even better than Nikon and Canon are loosing grip....
Historically, what you say has been true, but the success of the OM-D and the RX1 shows that there is significant interest in mirrorless cameras amongst real enthusiasts, a trend that I think will be growing as the concept filters upwards. There is much optimism about the new Ricoh GR as an enthusiast's camera as well, and I expect that we will see more such cameras over time. Sony has really shown the way with the RX1, a camera that delivers unbelievable IQ in a very compact package. As technological hurdles are surmounted, there is no reason why FF MILCs should not become the choice of enthusiasts and professionals alike. Just don't expect it to happen overnight.

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05-02-2013, 07:03 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Unless Canikon are establishing a massive barrier-to-entry inventory weapon in FF I fali to understand this suicidal business decision.
The DSLR market is maturing, that's all. And mirrorless has performance issues, as with the relatively poor AF of the X-pro and Olympus OM-D compared to much less expensive DSLR's (I quite like the OM-D BTW...lovely design and quality).

All the action has been APS-C and below precisely to drive volume sales. EOS-M, and Nikon's poor V/J showing. Fuji's X-Por/100, and now Ricoh GR.

Sony's goofing around in FF, but realistically, everyone just needs to get it through their heads that FF sensors are really, really, really expensive and chew up margins so fast they are not worth bringing to market en masse when observable IQ is not noticeable seeing as how only 1% of users print. The market for FF now is smaller than the 135 market ever was because the real need for FF levels of IQ are not there like they were. No player is in a rush to drive up FF sensor volumes because then there's be no higher margin items. They'd cannibalize everything below even as cameraphones encroach on the P&S market. If Pentax releases FF, it will be a K-mount DSLR body only near US$2,000.
05-02-2013, 07:11 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
Historically, what you say has been true, but the success of the OM-D and the RX1 shows that there is significant interest in mirrorless cameras amongst real enthusiasts, a trend that I think will be growing as the concept filters upwards. There is much optimism about the new Ricoh GR as an enthusiast's camera as well, and I expect that we will see more such cameras over time. Sony has really shown the way with the RX1, a camera that delivers unbelievable IQ in a very compact package. As technological hurdles are surmounted, there is no reason why FF MILCs should not become the choice of enthusiasts and professionals alike. Just don't expect it to happen overnight.

Rob
I woud not say the Olympus OM-D has been a resounding success. Olympus is still bleeding red ink and this is one pricey system with the smallest of the larger class sensors. My contacts in the industry say it has not sold well with price point and value being the problem.

The RX1 is a showpiece camera, not able top move the bottom line. It serves to demonstrate that what we all knew could be done, got done...for a ridiculous price.

Success is measured in money. This is an industry. Don't confuse internet chat from enthusiasts with market success. The SLR schema is still the most accurate, versatile, and cost-effective system in top-end photography.

05-03-2013, 05:46 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Contax N Digital (2002)
I've read that this used the same sensor as the prototype Pentax full format DSLR. I'd read that the camera was a dog, but I've also found very favourable reviews too, for example:
Contax N Digital Review

@Kunzite. Sony cameras are DSLRs. They have a single lens and a reflex mirror. Sony just call them SLTs as marketing bullcrap.

@Clavius. Viewfinder image in one of these is a video feed from the sensor. Mirror is there to direct light onto a PDAF sensor at the top of the mount.

I don't expect this format to be terribly long lived. Most of the weight and bulk of a normal DSLR but no OVF.
05-03-2013, 05:56 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The DSLR market is maturing, that's all. And mirrorless has performance issues, as with the relatively poor AF of the X-pro and Olympus OM-D compared to much less expensive DSLR's (I quite like the OM-D BTW...lovely design and quality).

All the action has been APS-C and below precisely to drive volume sales. EOS-M, and Nikon's poor V/J showing. Fuji's X-Por/100, and now Ricoh GR.

Sony's goofing around in FF, but realistically, everyone just needs to get it through their heads that FF sensors are really, really, really expensive and chew up margins so fast they are not worth bringing to market en masse when observable IQ is not noticeable seeing as how only 1% of users print. The market for FF now is smaller than the 135 market ever was because the real need for FF levels of IQ are not there like they were. No player is in a rush to drive up FF sensor volumes because then there's be no higher margin items. They'd cannibalize everything below even as cameraphones encroach on the P&S market. If Pentax releases FF, it will be a K-mount DSLR body only near US$2,000.
FOV is very noticeable between APS-C and full frame:
05-03-2013, 06:26 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by top-quark Quote
@Kunzite. Sony cameras are DSLRs. They have a single lens and a reflex mirror. Sony just call them SLTs as marketing bullcrap.
No, they are not DSLRs. A single lens reflex camera is one that allows the photographer to view/compose through the single (photographic) lens, by redirecting all or part of the incoming light to a viewfinder, via a mirror (reflex). A SLR, thus, is all about its viewing single lens reflex mechanism.
The SLT also have a mirror, but there is a fundamental difference: that mirror (as you said yourself) is completely unrelated to the viewing subsystem; it's only used to reflect part of the light to a dedicated autofocus module. Yes, it has a mirror but it's purpose is different (and we can't ignore that).

If you don't agree, I will glue a mirror to some OM-D or NEX and call it a single lens reflex
05-03-2013, 08:53 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I woud not say the Olympus OM-D has been a resounding success. Olympus is still bleeding red ink and this is one pricey system with the smallest of the larger class sensors. My contacts in the industry say it has not sold well with price point and value being the problem.

The RX1 is a showpiece camera, not able top move the bottom line. It serves to demonstrate that what we all knew could be done, got done...for a ridiculous price.

Success is measured in money. This is an industry. Don't confuse internet chat from enthusiasts with market success. The SLR schema is still the most accurate, versatile, and cost-effective system in top-end photography.
Regardless of whether it is a profitable model, what Sony has learned in designing and building the RX1 will undoubtedly be utilized in cameras yet to come. The RX1 is not perfect, but anyone who holds one in his hands and then sees its output cannot help but think that this might very well be the future of high end photography. I own a K-5 and all three FA Limited lenses, but my little RX1's IQ leaves the K-5 in the dust. It would be a big mistake to underestimate what might be accomplished as mirrorless technology advances. It's not yet at the point that it can replace DSLRs for everything, but the day may come when it will be. Better AF and EVFs that equal the best LCD screens are pretty much all that is needed. Who would be willing to bet against that happening?

Rob


Last edited by robgo2; 05-03-2013 at 09:32 AM.
05-03-2013, 12:16 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
Regardless of whether it is a profitable model, what Sony has learned in designing and building the RX1 will undoubtedly be utilized in cameras yet to come. The RX1 is not perfect, but anyone who holds one in his hands and then sees its output cannot help but think that this might very well be the future of high end photography. ....It's not yet at the point that it can replace DSLRs for everything, but the day may come when it will be. Better AF and EVFs that equal the best LCD screens are pretty much all that is needed. Who would be willing to bet against that happening?

Rob
If one has not been involved in a manufacturing or fabrication company, they may not appreciate how useful that initial attempt/prototype/first model is to everything that happens later. All of this effort may not have been solely to learn how to build a mirrorless prototype, but it may also have been to warn off potential competitors - but that is supposition.

I would quibble a little bit with your comparison to the K5. A fixed lens camera is not as difficult to design and manufacture as an ILC. For example, one does not have to concern themselves with the bayonet tolerances of many different lenses.

Sony is one step closer to producing that mirrorless Nex model. The Rx1 makes it more unlikely that Pentax will go down this path.
05-03-2013, 12:22 PM   #85
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QuoteQuote:
Originally posted by top-quark Quote

Sony cameras are DSLRs. They have a single lens and a reflex mirror. Sony just call them SLTs as marketing bullcrap.
Sony SLT camera
Sony A900 DSLR
05-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
If one has not been involved in a manufacturing or fabrication company, they may not appreciate how useful that initial attempt/prototype/first model is to everything that happens later. All of this effort may not have been solely to learn how to build a mirrorless prototype, but it may also have been to warn off potential competitors - but that is supposition.

I would quibble a little bit with your comparison to the K5. A fixed lens camera is not as difficult to design and manufacture as an ILC. For example, one does not have to concern themselves with the bayonet tolerances of many different lenses.

Sony is one step closer to producing that mirrorless Nex model. The Rx1 makes it more unlikely that Pentax will go down this path.
I agree completely that a MILC is much more challenging to build than a fixed lens camera. For instance, in the RX1, the fixed lens was designed specifically to match the sensor. The rear element of the lens sits only millimeters in front of the sensor. I'm not sure how one could do the same with interchangeable lenses. Almost certainly, the camera body would have to be larger. But no one thought that a camera such as the RX1 was possible until Sony actually did it, and I would bet that the same will prove to be true of a FF MILC. It's not a question of "if," but "when."

To be honest, if Sony comes out with an RX2 having a fixed 75mm lens, I would be thrilled. For the type of photography that I favor, I could live quite happily most of the time with just two focal lengths--35mm and 75mm--and it would be far easier to carry an RX1/RX2 combo than any DSLR with a zoom lens. It would most likely cost more as well.

Rob
05-03-2013, 08:57 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
Almost certainly, the camera body would have to be larger.
Hopefully the size of M9 or X pro or smaller.

QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
if Sony comes out with an RX2 having a fixed 75mm lens, I would be thrilled.
What about fixed 50mm f1.4?
Yes, RX1 may seem to cost a lot but a Zeiss f2.0 with AF is not going to be cheap. Manual ZM lens is close to US1K and maybe the AF version if any, may cost more.
The only system with AF and Zeiss is Sony. The Sony FF body with Zeiss AF prime (FF ZA) will cost just as much. What about the bulky size of the DSLR with the FF lens? For me personally as a amateur with ageing joints, it is a definite 'no no'. It may suit a lot of others with big hands and happy to hike with backpack full of gear. I can see why SB has got rid of his 1DX and bought Oly.
Not all photographers favour the size of FF DSLR and FF zoom lenses. That may be one reason why Fuji, Olympus and Sony are popular.
05-03-2013, 09:56 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bestzoom Quote
Not all photographers favour the size of FF DSLR and FF zoom lenses. That may be one reason why Fuji, Olympus and Sony are popular.
For lenses with similar capability (F/4 FF rather than F/2.5 APS-C) , FF zooms seem to be a bit smaller and lighter.
05-03-2013, 10:15 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bestzoom Quote
Hopefully the size of M9 or X pro or smaller.



What about fixed 50mm f1.4?
Yes, RX1 may seem to cost a lot but a Zeiss f2.0 with AF is not going to be cheap. Manual ZM lens is close to US1K and maybe the AF version if any, may cost more.
The only system with AF and Zeiss is Sony. The Sony FF body with Zeiss AF prime (FF ZA) will cost just as much. What about the bulky size of the DSLR with the FF lens? For me personally as a amateur with ageing joints, it is a definite 'no no'. It may suit a lot of others with big hands and happy to hike with backpack full of gear. I can see why SB has got rid of his 1DX and bought Oly.
Not all photographers favour the size of FF DSLR and FF zoom lenses. That may be one reason why Fuji, Olympus and Sony are popular.
I have read estimates of the RX1's Zeiss 35/2 lens costing up to $1800, if it were to be sold as a separate unit. That would leave the RX1's body and 24MP FF sensor costing $1000, not such a bad deal after all.

I can understand how a fixed 50mm lens might appeal to some shooters (isn't that what Cartier-Bresson used mostly?), but I was thinking of a second prime lens camera to pair with the RX1. The 75mm focal length would be more suitable, at least for me. Also, a 50/1.4 would be fairly large and heavy, which would more or less defeat the purpose of the camera.

Rob
05-03-2013, 10:53 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
I have read estimates of the RX1's Zeiss 35/2 lens costing up to $1800, if it were to be sold as a separate unit. That would leave the RX1's body and 24MP FF sensor costing $1000, not such a bad deal after all.
True.... Zeiss output is fantastic.. combined with AF, that will be awesome.

QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
Also, a 50/1.4 would be fairly large and heavy, which would more or less defeat the purpose of the camera.
Yes, 50mm f1.4 is bigger.

My Voigtlander 40mm f1.4 is not much different in size from my Zeiss 35mm f2 ZM lens. The 35mm on RX1 looks even smaller.
75mm on the other hand will be even bigger. Pentax FA77 is one of the most compact prime, smaller than FA31mm.
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