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05-10-2013, 05:18 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
For example: The price and quality of the FA 50 1.4 vs the Nikon 50 1.4 D and G. They are both cheaper and sharper.

And you can buy the Nikon 35 f2 G three times over for the price of the Pentax FA35 f2. (Pentax $600 vs Nikon $196) When you look at PZ's ratings... Oh wait, how was it again? Pentax lenses don't perform well when shooting test charts, we should just buy them without consulting any measurements.

Current Pentax and Pentaxians are not cheap.
I agree about the prices, but I think Pentax performs not so well in the test charts just because they make the tests with the best camera availlable from each company. So, the Nikon Lens are tested with D800, D3 or D4, Canon Lenses are tested with 1D or 5D and pentax lenses are tested mainly with k-7 and k-5. just a few lenses were tested with the new k-5iis.

I hope Pentax would strive to make a better camera this year. It could be with APS-H sensor, than it woudnt have the vignetting problem. But it is very annoying, that Pentax always comes with better features in entry-models (like bettes processor, better video, focus peacking... in the k-30) and the "state-of-the-art" top of line stay without this features. It happened in the past as well with K-7 and k-x.

05-10-2013, 05:22 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I guess it is logical to assume that Pentax will only enter into FF if there are benefits to the company. The task is to try and understand what those benefits may be, and understanding how Pentax may calculate benefits vs costs.
The benefits of doing so, but also the potential dangers associated with not doing so.

Broken record warning, but: if the lower-end of your lens sales are being eaten by mirrorless, and the upper-end is being encroached by low-cost FF, you're left with the middle, and that may not be enough to sustain K-mount 5 or 10 years from now. They may need to move to FF if they want to keep K-mount viable.

.
05-10-2013, 05:51 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
you can buy the Nikon 35 f2 G
I didn't even know that lens existed. The only 35 G I know about is the DX format 35 f1.8 G....

If we are talking affordable 35mm lenses, it would be better to compare the Nikon 35 G lens with the equivalently affordable DAL 35 f2.4. The DAL 35 is sharper the Nikon 35G, especially wide open. Just look at them both on PZ. The DAL is sharper and has less CA. And in comparison to the DAL 35, the other Nikon 35mm (the 35 mm f2 D), simply performs miserably.

But I guess one sees what they want to see.
05-10-2013, 05:55 AM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
...... But I can appreciate that their 'baby' might really be the 645D and that they probably should develop that as far as possible because they really don't need to produce so many units and can reap a greater reward for the output compared to a FF offering. A 60 or 80MP sensor could allow them to maintain their $10k price-tag and stay well ahead of the FF market in quality and really allow them to develop a system unencumbered by the past or comparisons with Canikon. Having a couple of D800E's and a few lenses has given me a taste for MF resolution but a realization that this camera has issues with long exposures and high ISO that I would prefer to have avoided. I would consider selling both of my D800E's and lenses for one 645D II and three or four lenses. As long as they keep that price down they have a chance IMO.
Your comments are interesting in terms of trading the D800 for a 645D II. The 645D really does not support high ISO as we know it in the sense of a K5 sensor. Its a CCD sensor. So, that brings me to wonder if Pentax is thinking of using a CCD based sensor with a lower resolution for the rumored FF (than the current 645D). They have indicated in the past that they are going to do something unique with their potential offering. I did read some items posted by the foundry that is producing the current 40MP CCD for the 645D that they were working on a follow on that Pentax was going to use. I just assumed that it would be a replacement for the 645D sensor in a potential 645D II. Now I am wondering if they would use a scaled down similar CCD for a FF. That would potentially provide for some interesting possibilities.

I rarely go over ISO 1600 (90% of the time its on 80) on my K5. A CCD with extraordinary good color, very low noise, extremely low ISO of say 25, exceptional dynamic range with a resolution of 16MP+, would I think would get me possibly thinking about the full frame. Couple that with some shift technology that enables stacking that would produce 4x the resolution, and then I would become very interested. I have a number of old glass lenses that should be up to the rigors of FF (Limiteds, Taks, Zeiss, Contax and Leica). If not, I am still really pleased with my K5, and the price is coming down on the K5IIs.



05-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I rarely go over ISO 1600 (90% of the time its on 80) on my K5. A CCD with extraordinary good color, very low noise, extremely low ISO of say 25, exceptional dynamic range with a resolution of 16MP+, would I think would get me possibly thinking about the full frame. Couple that with some shift technology that enables stacking that would produce 4x the resolution, and then I would become very interested.
Omg, that would be so cool! But... They also might be referring to FF as in 645 FF. The current sensor in the 645D is a crop. How ironic would that be?
05-10-2013, 06:29 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
They may need to move to FF if they want to keep K-mount viable.
I think a big benefit of FF for K-mount's viability would be the role it would play in helping people climb the upgrade ladder all in-house, as it were. As it stands now, the FF upgrade path forces people to abandon K-mount. And with them go their big-spending dollars.

I remember seeing something related to this outlined in a Canon presentation once - their lower-end cameras were clearly seen as progressively feeding into higher-end (and more profitable) systems - point-and-shoot, then mirrorless, then APS-C DSLR's, then FF.
05-10-2013, 06:35 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I suspect Pentax/Hoya recognised that and didn't try too hard to renew their agreement with Samsung.
Yes, I didn't think that through. Samsung would probably have swallowed Pentax whole without leaving a trace behind.
05-10-2013, 06:44 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
It seems to me that there would be a pretty decent market in niche products that really cut it. e.g. A B&W APS-C camera (no AA and no Bayer) would take over the street photography and landscape genre in a flash (sorry) if it were the right design format.
Now that is something I would buy in a New York minute! That's what should have gotten the "MX-1" name.

05-10-2013, 06:44 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Are you talking about Pentax in 2013? Because they are far away from being the big-bang-for-the-buck-brand that they used to be. Here in Europe, for the money you spend on a mediocre Pentax lens, without OS, without motor, but with terribly noisy AF, you can get two from the other brands with better IQ to boot. Or one from the other brands with OS, silent & fast motor and good IQ.

So imho, current and new Pentaxians are not cheap at all.
How many lenses does Pentax sell at current prices? At least on the forum, what I see are constant whining about current prices and people saying that Pentax had better lower their prices if they would like to sell any lenses.

As far as the screw drive and image quality. I have no problem at all with the image quality of Pentax lenses -- they certainly aren't worse than those of other brands. To me, the screw drive isn't a big deal -- I prefer the smaller lenses available with the combination of this and in body stabilization to those available from Nikon/Canon. But this begs the question, 'If you aren't here for the glass, why are you here?'
05-10-2013, 09:37 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The benefits of doing so, but also the potential dangers associated with not doing so.

Broken record warning, but: if the lower-end of your lens sales are being eaten by mirrorless, and the upper-end is being encroached by low-cost FF, you're left with the middle, and that may not be enough to sustain K-mount 5 or 10 years from now. They may need to move to FF if they want to keep K-mount viable.

.
Pentax is unequivocally committed to the three current mounts. A Full Frame Pentax is real but not soon. In five years Pentax will be the third major camera brand globally, but not by convincing us, and not sooner.

You may quote me..
05-10-2013, 10:07 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by causey Quote
The single most important factor why Pentax might not be motivated to come up with a FF camera is that FF just doesn't sell as much as APS-C:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/224233-2012-japan-sale...less-slrs.html
Right, but the average price/margin on FF cameras is much higher. Of course the sales won't be as high- they're almost always inversely proportional to the selling price. FX lenses are also a good source of income for companies line Canon and Nikon (just look at the prices!).

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05-10-2013, 10:24 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
FX lenses are also a good source of income for companies line Canon and Nikon (just look at the prices!).

Sure--if people buy them. Pentaxians tend to be rather frugal customers.
05-10-2013, 11:21 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by causey Quote
Sure--if people buy them. Pentaxians tend to be rather frugal customers.
If frugality is the driver, they might as well leave Pentax now...because you can get Nikon glass cheaper than Pentax.
And as much as people say Pentax glass is much higher quality than Nikon at specific price points, I have not found that to be the case at all.
05-10-2013, 12:11 PM   #44
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Looked at as a self-contained platform, APS-C (or the stuff Oly/Pana peddle) work just fine - you get lenses to suit, and everything scales pretty well. So an optical view finder is small, which is an issue for us aging folks, but maybe not a big enough issue to pay at least double for a full frame camera.

But I - as many other Pentaxians, and certainly many Nikonians, and perversely, Canonites - am into old lenses, for the esthetic, the fun, and the price/performance ratio. This is where the crux of a Pentax FF comes for me... the ability to shoot a 28 or 24 as a 28 or 24, and have the camera meter, stop down, shake reduce, and focus assist me.

Do I represent a major market? No.
Do I influence the market in a major way? No, the commercial photographers do (hence Canon and Nikon)... but in the internet age, I (and by 'I' I mean people like me) do have a marginal influence in the general public perception of a camera brand.

I view the FF thing this way: I want one! But I hate to pay $2K for one, though I'm scheming of ways to do it for 'free'. I would want the Canon as I can mount nearly anything, but lose all automation in the process. I'd rather go with Nikon just because I have the old Nikkors I want already. I also have nearly all the Pentax glass I need, and will get shake reduction (I assume) with Pentax, so I will wait.

Are consumers like me a road to profits for Pentax? Do they push the legacy thing at a (possible) expense to their new lens sales?
05-10-2013, 12:40 PM - 1 Like   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
I view the FF thing this way: I want one! But I hate to pay $2K for one, though I'm scheming of ways to do it for 'free'. I would want the Canon as I can mount nearly anything, but lose all automation in the process. I'd rather go with Nikon just because I have the old Nikkors I want already. I also have nearly all the Pentax glass I need, and will get shake reduction (I assume) with Pentax, so I will wait.
Agreed - mainly to get my old lenses to have the FOV they should have, but also to get a viewfinder that allows good manual focus. I'm still toying with getting a D600 because I also have old Nikkors - but my range of old Pentax lenses is better. (The D600 also still has mechanical linkage to the aperture for old lenses, so that would be something to check on any Pentax FF!)
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