Why there might NOT be a FF

**Pål Jensen** · 05-15-2013, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by jsherman999

Broken record warning, but: if the lower-end of your lens sales are being eaten by mirrorless, and the upper-end is being encroached by low-cost FF, you're left with the middle, and that may not be enough to sustain K-mount 5 or 10 years from now. They may need to move to FF if they want to keep K-mount viable.

.

This has been repeated over and over again but it isn't happenening. It isn't FF that erode APS but the other way around. Nikon sell more D800 than any other FF model because the camera is sufficiently boosted image qualitywise compared to APS. FF share increase is stalled due to APS giving more value for money and output quality good enough for 95% of the buying public. Mirrorless is not stealing APS DSLR sales but stealing P&S sales (mirrorless vs DSLR has nothing to do with sensor size anyway). FF is under pressure, not APS....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 05-15-2013 at 09:49 AM.

ElJamoquio · 05-16-2013, 07:52 AM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

This has been repeated over and over again but it isn't happenening. It isn't FF that erode APS but the other way around. Nikon sell more D800 than any other FF model because the camera is sufficiently boosted image qualitywise compared to APS. FF share increase is stalled due to APS giving more value for money and output quality good enough for 95% of the buying public. Mirrorless is not stealing APS DSLR sales but stealing P&S sales (mirrorless vs DSLR has nothing to do with sensor size anyway). FF is under pressure, not APS....

The D600 is outselling the D800 on amazon.

Amazon Best Sellers: best Digital SLR Cameras

The D600 has no real IQ degradation compared to the D800 assuming you're not cropping severely (throwing away 80% of the picture).

cali92rs · 05-16-2013, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

The D600 is outselling the D800 on amazon.

Of course it is...
its the reason why APS-C outsells FF, and why compacts outsell APS-C, and why Civics outsell Ferraris.
They are cheaper.

Pal does everything he can to justify what Pentax is currently doing. Pentax does not sell a FF, therefore he feels that Pentax should not sell a FF. If they sold one tommorow, he would say it is the right move.

**boriscleto** · 05-16-2013, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by cali92rs

Of course it is...
its the reason why APS-C outsells FF, and why compacts outsell APS-C, and why Civics outsell Ferraris.
They are cheaper.

Pal does everything he can to justify what Pentax is currently doing. Pentax does not sell a FF, therefore he feels that Pentax should not sell a FF. If they sold one tommorow, he would say it is the right move.

People who buy D800s aren't price shopping. Why would they buy one on Amazon? Other than to avoid sales tax? If they live where they can get away with that...

The kind of person buying a D800 is usually the kind that would buy at a specialty camera shop. People buying the D600 on the other hand are buying it simply because it is cheap. They are exactly the kind of people who would buy from Amazon, after trying it at a camera shop, just to avoid sales tax.

cali92rs · 05-16-2013, 10:18 AM

Originally posted by boriscleto

People who buy D800s aren't price shopping. Why would they buy one on Amazon? Other than to avoid sales tax? If they live where they can get away with that...

The kind of person buying a D800 is usually the kind that would buy at a specialty camera shop. People buying the D600 on the other hand are buying it simply because it is cheap. They are exactly the kind of people who would buy from Amazon, after trying it at a camera shop, just to avoid sales tax.

Exactly why people buy things on Amazon...to avoid sales tax. Also there are packages available at amazon (and other online retailers) not available at these mom and pop shops.
It is a common practice for people to play around and handle a camera in person and buy it online.
Showrooming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ElJamoquio · 05-16-2013, 11:05 AM

I buy things on Amazon all the time. If I don't like it I return it. I pay sales tax on Amazon purchases.

**monochrome** · 05-16-2013, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

I buy things on Amazon all the time. If I don't like it I return it. I pay sales tax on Amazon purchases.

And I pay more for everyting I buy to compensate for this behavior. Such behavior is socially unacceptable in Japan. As is showrooming.

Some people are so freaking self-centered.

jogiba · 05-16-2013, 11:30 AM

If I purchased the D800 from B&H it would cost me $2,796.95 with free shipping and zero sales tax.
Nikon D800 Digital SLR Camera 25480 B&H Photo (D800 Body)

ElJamoquio · 05-16-2013, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

And I pay more for everyting I buy to compensate for this behavior. Such behavior is socially unacceptable in Japan. As is showrooming.

Some people are so freaking self-centered.

Huh? I purchase things on Amazon, I pay taxes and asking price. Amazon and I are both happy.

You could arguably pay less because I purchase more overall than I otherwise would and the economies of scale are better.

**monochrome** · 05-16-2013, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

Huh? I purchase things on Amazon, I pay taxes and asking price. Amazon and I are both happy.

You could arguably pay less because I purchase more overall than I otherwise would and the economies of scale are better.

Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns?

ElJamoquio · 05-16-2013, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns?

I *am* real. It's not like I go flippantly purchasing everything under the sun. Heck, it's way easier to list the Pentax lenses I don't have than it is to list the ones I do.

I'm not sure what you think the sales-over-the-internet model SHOULD be, but if Amazon, B+H, and Adorama didn't want you to be allowed to return something, they wouldn't let you. The entire internet model is based on the guarantee that you will be satisfied - how else would you an internet economy to function (where you give away money now and maybe get something you like in a week or so)?

Are you proposing that Amazon, B+H, Adorama should cancel their return policy (or at least their 'no longer wanted' portion of the policy?)?

cali92rs · 05-16-2013, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns?

What's the alternative?
I walk into Target, they have nothing but Mid to low level cameras and like 1 or 2 canikon lenses. I walk into Best Buy, same thing with maybe a few more Canikon Items.
I walk into a mom and pop shop and they might, just might carry Pentax items, but they have a far from complete selection.
The only way we can get a complete selection of Pentax (or Canikon goods for that matter) is to buy online.
So your saying if we recieve the item and it is not what we expected, we should eat it, suck it up and say "better luck next time...hopefully your blind purchase works out better next time"

Kunzite · 05-16-2013, 01:18 PM

I don't think the problem is making a deliberate purchase and not being satisfied with the merchandise; but buying on a whim, then changing your mind - because you can.
As a protection mechanism, it's a good thing; yet so often abused (less so where I live).

**boriscleto** · 05-16-2013, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by cali92rs

What's the alternative?
I walk into Target, they have nothing but Mid to low level cameras and like 1 or 2 canikon lenses. I walk into Best Buy, same thing with maybe a few more Canikon Items.
I walk into a mom and pop shop and they might, just might carry Pentax items, but they have a far from complete selection.
The only way we can get a complete selection of Pentax (or Canikon goods for that matter) is to buy online.
So your saying if we recieve the item and it is not what we expected, we should eat it, suck it up and say "better luck next time...hopefully your blind purchase works out better next time"

The Syracuse metropolitan area has around 700,000 people. There are 3 full service camera shops in Syracuse, all of which carry the full line of Canikon cameras. You live in a place that has more than 3 times the population. You're saying there is no place in all of San Diego to purchase a D800?

**monochrome** · 05-16-2013, 03:21 PM

I have never, ever returned something I bought because after the fact I decided I just didn't like it. Many of us expect the right to do that and Amazon et. al. expect their suppliers to take back those returns (or they keep re-shipping them until someone just keeps it), so one way or the other I pay more than I should. I do know people who buy 4 sizes of an item, try them on at home and ship three or all four back.

I also know - I KNOW - that global products are priced (including disabling features) and marketed in the USA expecting a significant "remorse" allowance. Manufacturers long ago gave up trying to fight it and just price to expectations now, and we respond by insisting we get the "best" deal, to which we are entitled.

I don'expect you to understand. .

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05-15-2013, 09:43 AM	#61
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by jsherman999 Broken record warning, but: if the lower-end of your lens sales are being eaten by mirrorless, and the upper-end is being encroached by low-cost FF, you're left with the middle, and that may not be enough to sustain K-mount 5 or 10 years from now. They may need to move to FF if they want to keep K-mount viable. . This has been repeated over and over again but it isn't happenening. It isn't FF that erode APS but the other way around. Nikon sell more D800 than any other FF model because the camera is sufficiently boosted image qualitywise compared to APS. FF share increase is stalled due to APS giving more value for money and output quality good enough for 95% of the buying public. Mirrorless is not stealing APS DSLR sales but stealing P&S sales (mirrorless vs DSLR has nothing to do with sensor size anyway). FF is under pressure, not APS.... Last edited by Pål Jensen; 05-15-2013 at 09:49 AM.

05-16-2013, 07:52 AM	#62
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by Pål Jensen This has been repeated over and over again but it isn't happenening. It isn't FF that erode APS but the other way around. Nikon sell more D800 than any other FF model because the camera is sufficiently boosted image qualitywise compared to APS. FF share increase is stalled due to APS giving more value for money and output quality good enough for 95% of the buying public. Mirrorless is not stealing APS DSLR sales but stealing P&S sales (mirrorless vs DSLR has nothing to do with sensor size anyway). FF is under pressure, not APS.... The D600 is outselling the D800 on amazon. Amazon Best Sellers: best Digital SLR Cameras The D600 has no real IQ degradation compared to the D800 assuming you're not cropping severely (throwing away 80% of the picture).

05-16-2013, 09:08 AM	#63
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by ElJamoquio The D600 is outselling the D800 on amazon. Of course it is... its the reason why APS-C outsells FF, and why compacts outsell APS-C, and why Civics outsell Ferraris. They are cheaper. Pal does everything he can to justify what Pentax is currently doing. Pentax does not sell a FF, therefore he feels that Pentax should not sell a FF. If they sold one tommorow, he would say it is the right move.

05-16-2013, 09:23 AM	#64
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by cali92rs Of course it is... its the reason why APS-C outsells FF, and why compacts outsell APS-C, and why Civics outsell Ferraris. They are cheaper. Pal does everything he can to justify what Pentax is currently doing. Pentax does not sell a FF, therefore he feels that Pentax should not sell a FF. If they sold one tommorow, he would say it is the right move. People who buy D800s aren't price shopping. Why would they buy one on Amazon? Other than to avoid sales tax? If they live where they can get away with that... The kind of person buying a D800 is usually the kind that would buy at a specialty camera shop. People buying the D600 on the other hand are buying it simply because it is cheap. They are exactly the kind of people who would buy from Amazon, after trying it at a camera shop, just to avoid sales tax.

05-16-2013, 10:18 AM	#65
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by boriscleto People who buy D800s aren't price shopping. Why would they buy one on Amazon? Other than to avoid sales tax? If they live where they can get away with that... The kind of person buying a D800 is usually the kind that would buy at a specialty camera shop. People buying the D600 on the other hand are buying it simply because it is cheap. They are exactly the kind of people who would buy from Amazon, after trying it at a camera shop, just to avoid sales tax. Exactly why people buy things on Amazon...to avoid sales tax. Also there are packages available at amazon (and other online retailers) not available at these mom and pop shops. It is a common practice for people to play around and handle a camera in person and buy it online. Showrooming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

05-16-2013, 11:05 AM	#66
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	I buy things on Amazon all the time. If I don't like it I return it. I pay sales tax on Amazon purchases.

05-16-2013, 11:22 AM	#67
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ElJamoquio I buy things on Amazon all the time. If I don't like it I return it. I pay sales tax on Amazon purchases. And I pay more for everyting I buy to compensate for this behavior. Such behavior is socially unacceptable in Japan. As is showrooming. Some people are so freaking self-centered.

05-16-2013, 11:30 AM	#68
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	If I purchased the D800 from B&H it would cost me $2,796.95 with free shipping and zero sales tax. Nikon D800 Digital SLR Camera 25480 B&H Photo (D800 Body)

05-16-2013, 11:34 AM	#69
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by monochrome And I pay more for everyting I buy to compensate for this behavior. Such behavior is socially unacceptable in Japan. As is showrooming. Some people are so freaking self-centered. Huh? I purchase things on Amazon, I pay taxes and asking price. Amazon and I are both happy. You could arguably pay less because I purchase more overall than I otherwise would and the economies of scale are better.

05-16-2013, 12:51 PM	#70
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ElJamoquio Huh? I purchase things on Amazon, I pay taxes and asking price. Amazon and I are both happy. You could arguably pay less because I purchase more overall than I otherwise would and the economies of scale are better. Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns?

05-16-2013, 12:56 PM	#71
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	Originally posted by monochrome Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns? I am real. It's not like I go flippantly purchasing everything under the sun. Heck, it's way easier to list the Pentax lenses I don't have than it is to list the ones I do. I'm not sure what you think the sales-over-the-internet model SHOULD be, but if Amazon, B+H, and Adorama didn't want you to be allowed to return something, they wouldn't let you. The entire internet model is based on the guarantee that you will be satisfied - how else would you an internet economy to function (where you give away money now and maybe get something you like in a week or so)? Are you proposing that Amazon, B+H, Adorama should cancel their return policy (or at least their 'no longer wanted' portion of the policy?)?

05-16-2013, 01:12 PM	#72
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by monochrome Get real. Who pays for restocking / rebating your returns? What's the alternative? I walk into Target, they have nothing but Mid to low level cameras and like 1 or 2 canikon lenses. I walk into Best Buy, same thing with maybe a few more Canikon Items. I walk into a mom and pop shop and they might, just might carry Pentax items, but they have a far from complete selection. The only way we can get a complete selection of Pentax (or Canikon goods for that matter) is to buy online. So your saying if we recieve the item and it is not what we expected, we should eat it, suck it up and say "better luck next time...hopefully your blind purchase works out better next time"

05-16-2013, 01:18 PM	#73
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	I don't think the problem is making a deliberate purchase and not being satisfied with the merchandise; but buying on a whim, then changing your mind - because you can. As a protection mechanism, it's a good thing; yet so often abused (less so where I live).

05-16-2013, 01:37 PM	#74
boriscleto Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: North Syracuse, NY Photos: Gallery Posts: 16,475	Originally posted by cali92rs What's the alternative? I walk into Target, they have nothing but Mid to low level cameras and like 1 or 2 canikon lenses. I walk into Best Buy, same thing with maybe a few more Canikon Items. I walk into a mom and pop shop and they might, just might carry Pentax items, but they have a far from complete selection. The only way we can get a complete selection of Pentax (or Canikon goods for that matter) is to buy online. So your saying if we recieve the item and it is not what we expected, we should eat it, suck it up and say "better luck next time...hopefully your blind purchase works out better next time" The Syracuse metropolitan area has around 700,000 people. There are 3 full service camera shops in Syracuse, all of which carry the full line of Canikon cameras. You live in a place that has more than 3 times the population. You're saying there is no place in all of San Diego to purchase a D800?

05-16-2013, 03:21 PM	#75
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	I have never, ever returned something I bought because after the fact I decided I just didn't like it. Many of us expect the right to do that and Amazon et. al. expect their suppliers to take back those returns (or they keep re-shipping them until someone just keeps it), so one way or the other I pay more than I should. I do know people who buy 4 sizes of an item, try them on at home and ship three or all four back. I also know - I KNOW - that global products are priced (including disabling features) and marketed in the USA expecting a significant "remorse" allowance. Manufacturers long ago gave up trying to fight it and just price to expectations now, and we respond by insisting we get the "best" deal, to which we are entitled. I don'expect you to understand. .