Why there might NOT be a FF

**RussV** · 05-09-2013, 02:56 AM

I don't anything more about this than anyone else but it occured to me that Pentax might not be keen on making a FF model. For a start many of the current lens won't work on FF because of the image size difference so a new series of lens is required. Great, except for the mass of FF auto and manual lenses already out there. How many people are going to buy new lenses to replace one that already does the job. In this instance the tradition of backwards compatibility seems to work against users. People will say what about the threat fom Nikons new FF mega-mega sized sensor (I can't rmember how many pixels). Pentax already have the answer, their medium fomat range with 40 megapixels. They won't want to compete against themselves and a lot of other big makes don't make medium fomat.

The idea Pentax are having technical problems making a FF DSLR sounds totally absud to me given their history. They do have to make a profit though, and I suggest whether a FF will make enough is likely to be the deciding factor.

causey · 05-09-2013, 07:06 AM

The single most important factor why Pentax might not be motivated to come up with a FF camera is that FF just doesn't sell as much as APS-C:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/224233-2012-japan-sale...less-slrs.html

jogiba · 05-09-2013, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by causey

The single most important factor why Pentax might not be motivated to come up with a FF camera is that FF just doesn't sell as much as APS-C:
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/224233-2012-japan-sale...less-slrs.html

The full frame market is at least 10x larger than MF.

Pentax 645D Digital SLR Camera (Body Only) 17971 B&H Photo Video
Pentax smc DA 645 25mm f/4 AL (IF) SDM AW Lens 26370 B&H Photo

causey · 05-09-2013, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by jogiba

The full frame market is at least 10x larger than MF.

Pentax 645D Digital SLR Camera (Body Only) 17971 B&H Photo Video
Pentax smc DA 645 25mm f/4 AL (IF) SDM AW Lens 26370 B&H Photo

But Pentax is a recognized name in the MF market, while the FF market is pretty heavily dominated by Canon and Nikon.

scratchpaddy · 05-09-2013, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by causey

while the FF market is pretty heavily dominated by Canon and Nikon

So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma...

vonBaloney · 05-09-2013, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by RussV

For a start many of the current lens won't work on FF because of the image size difference so a new series of lens is required. Great, except for the mass of FF auto and manual lenses already out there.

Think of all the new lenses they could make and sell. What an opportunity! The amount of people that buy old (used) lenses is way overstated -- in relative terms it is a pretty tiny share eating into their new lens sales. Yes there are some older models available, but that's still Pentax making the sale. Sigma is a much bigger threat to their lens sales than the used market, but I also think third-party support helps build the brand, so I don't think they should really be considered a threat

causey · 05-09-2013, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by scratchpaddy

So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma...

Let me put it this way: at this point Pentax is capable to hold a meager 4.5% share of Japan's APS-C market, which is heavily dominated by C/N, and we hope it can compete on the FF market, which C/N own in almost absolute terms. C/N having fairly solid fan bases and capabilities (capital, technology, production, distribution, etc.). What Pentax has is a vocal minority of FF-hopefuls. (Not sure how many of them genuinely want and can afford a FF camera.)
I am not against a FF from Pentax--all my lenses except the kit lens are FF... I'm just skeptical Pentax can be successful on the traditional FF market without risking their APS-C assets. If they come up with something different (e.g., an inexpensive, light FF mirrorless camera), maybe they will be able to carve a place for themselves.

Last edited by causey; 05-09-2013 at 04:21 PM.

jogiba · 05-09-2013, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by scratchpaddy

So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma...

The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash and could buyout Canon and Nikon if they wanted to .

causey · 05-09-2013, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by jogiba

The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash and could buyout Canon and Nikon if they wanted to .

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Samsung Group is a South Korean multinational conglomerate company headquartered in Samsung Town, Seoul. It comprises numerous subsidiaries and affiliated businesses, most of them united under the Samsung brand, and is the largest South Korean chaebol.

It's not as if the most logical use of that cash is towards securing Samsung's position on the APS-C market. Samsung has lots of things to look after. The fact that Samsung has the cash to buy C/N doesn't show it can buy them. There might not be any economic reason to do so, just as it might not make sense for them to build artificial islands in the middle of Pacific.

rawr · 05-09-2013, 05:00 PM

I guess it is logical to assume that Pentax will only enter into FF if there are benefits to the company. The task is to try and understand what those benefits may be, and understanding how Pentax may calculate benefits vs costs.

But it's a hard game to play from outside of the company walls. However all the whispers and hints suggest that Pentax has probably calculated (for reasons we can only speculate about) that it is worth a try to do FF in 2013/14.

Making cameras like the 6D and the D600 is certainly technically within the capabilities of Pentax. Ditto for lining up all the other elements of an attractive FF product offering - 4 or 5 new high grade FF lenses, a new flash or two etc. The hard part will be to make money out of FF.

None of this is news, of course, to anyone here.

oppositz · 05-09-2013, 05:03 PM - **1 Like**

Because after waiting forever for the FF to come out, I finally gave in and bought a K-5 IIs to replace my K-10.

It came today. Beautiful camera. Love it already.

Tomorrow there will likely be a FF announcement....

rawr · 05-09-2013, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by jogiba

The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash

Hmmm. Maybe Pentax should have kept their old partnership going with Samsung? And if Samsung bought them instead of Ricoh, that would have been interesting.

rawr · 05-09-2013, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by oppositz

Tomorrow there will likely be a FF announcement....

Truth. It always happens like that.

jogiba · 05-09-2013, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by causey

From Wikipedia:
It's not as if the most logical use of that cash is towards securing Samsung's position on the APS-C market. Samsung has lots of things to look after. The fact that Samsung has the cash to buy C/N doesn't show it can buy them. There might not be any economic reason to do so, just as it might not make sense for them to build artificial islands in the middle of Pacific.

Samsung sells more cameras worldwide than any company on the planet and the APS-C market is not on their radar screen and I was just showing who is largest company who sells APS-C cameras.

twitch · 05-09-2013, 05:47 PM

Samsung does sell APS-C cameras though, there were a heap of NX offerings last time I checked

05-09-2013, 02:56 AM	#1
RussV Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2013 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 300	Why there might NOT be a FF I don't anything more about this than anyone else but it occured to me that Pentax might not be keen on making a FF model. For a start many of the current lens won't work on FF because of the image size difference so a new series of lens is required. Great, except for the mass of FF auto and manual lenses already out there. How many people are going to buy new lenses to replace one that already does the job. In this instance the tradition of backwards compatibility seems to work against users. People will say what about the threat fom Nikons new FF mega-mega sized sensor (I can't rmember how many pixels). Pentax already have the answer, their medium fomat range with 40 megapixels. They won't want to compete against themselves and a lot of other big makes don't make medium fomat. The idea Pentax are having technical problems making a FF DSLR sounds totally absud to me given their history. They do have to make a profit though, and I suggest whether a FF will make enough is likely to be the deciding factor.

05-09-2013, 04:32 PM	#9
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by jogiba The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash and could buyout Canon and Nikon if they wanted to . From Wikipedia: Quote: Samsung Group is a South Korean multinational conglomerate company headquartered in Samsung Town, Seoul. It comprises numerous subsidiaries and affiliated businesses, most of them united under the Samsung brand, and is the largest South Korean chaebol. It's not as if the most logical use of that cash is towards securing Samsung's position on the APS-C market. Samsung has lots of things to look after. The fact that Samsung has the cash to buy C/N doesn't show it can buy them. There might not be any economic reason to do so, just as it might not make sense for them to build artificial islands in the middle of Pacific. Last edited by causey; 05-09-2013 at 04:43 PM.

05-09-2013, 05:03 PM - 1 Like	#11
oppositz Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Camillus, NY Posts: 39	Why there will be a FF... Because after waiting forever for the FF to come out, I finally gave in and bought a K-5 IIs to replace my K-10. It came today. Beautiful camera. Love it already. Tomorrow there will likely be a FF announcement....

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05-09-2013, 07:06 AM	#2
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	The single most important factor why Pentax might not be motivated to come up with a FF camera is that FF just doesn't sell as much as APS-C: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/224233-2012-japan-sale...less-slrs.html

05-09-2013, 03:05 PM	#3
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by causey The single most important factor why Pentax might not be motivated to come up with a FF camera is that FF just doesn't sell as much as APS-C: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-news-rumors/224233-2012-japan-sale...less-slrs.html The full frame market is at least 10x larger than MF. Pentax 645D Digital SLR Camera (Body Only) 17971 B&H Photo Video Pentax smc DA 645 25mm f/4 AL (IF) SDM AW Lens 26370 B&H Photo

05-09-2013, 03:12 PM	#4
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by jogiba The full frame market is at least 10x larger than MF. Pentax 645D Digital SLR Camera (Body Only) 17971 B&H Photo Video Pentax smc DA 645 25mm f/4 AL (IF) SDM AW Lens 26370 B&H Photo But Pentax is a recognized name in the MF market, while the FF market is pretty heavily dominated by Canon and Nikon.

05-09-2013, 03:25 PM	#5
scratchpaddy Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Phoenix Posts: 3,361	Originally posted by causey while the FF market is pretty heavily dominated by Canon and Nikon So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma...

05-09-2013, 03:37 PM	#6
vonBaloney Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 6,029	Originally posted by RussV For a start many of the current lens won't work on FF because of the image size difference so a new series of lens is required. Great, except for the mass of FF auto and manual lenses already out there. Think of all the new lenses they could make and sell. What an opportunity! The amount of people that buy old (used) lenses is way overstated -- in relative terms it is a pretty tiny share eating into their new lens sales. Yes there are some older models available, but that's still Pentax making the sale. Sigma is a much bigger threat to their lens sales than the used market, but I also think third-party support helps build the brand, so I don't think they should really be considered a threat

05-09-2013, 04:04 PM	#7
causey Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arlington, VA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,757	Originally posted by scratchpaddy So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma... Let me put it this way: at this point Pentax is capable to hold a meager 4.5% share of Japan's APS-C market, which is heavily dominated by C/N, and we hope it can compete on the FF market, which C/N own in almost absolute terms. C/N having fairly solid fan bases and capabilities (capital, technology, production, distribution, etc.). What Pentax has is a vocal minority of FF-hopefuls. (Not sure how many of them genuinely want and can afford a FF camera.) I am not against a FF from Pentax--all my lenses except the kit lens are FF... I'm just skeptical Pentax can be successful on the traditional FF market without risking their APS-C assets. If they come up with something different (e.g., an inexpensive, light FF mirrorless camera), maybe they will be able to carve a place for themselves. Last edited by causey; 05-09-2013 at 04:21 PM.

05-09-2013, 04:24 PM	#8
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by scratchpaddy So is the APS-C market. That's not stopping Pentax. Or Sony. Or Fuji. Or Sigma... The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash and could buyout Canon and Nikon if they wanted to .

05-09-2013, 05:00 PM	#10
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	I guess it is logical to assume that Pentax will only enter into FF if there are benefits to the company. The task is to try and understand what those benefits may be, and understanding how Pentax may calculate benefits vs costs. But it's a hard game to play from outside of the company walls. However all the whispers and hints suggest that Pentax has probably calculated (for reasons we can only speculate about) that it is worth a try to do FF in 2013/14. Making cameras like the 6D and the D600 is certainly technically within the capabilities of Pentax. Ditto for lining up all the other elements of an attractive FF product offering - 4 or 5 new high grade FF lenses, a new flash or two etc. The hard part will be to make money out of FF. None of this is news, of course, to anyone here.

05-09-2013, 05:05 PM	#12
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by jogiba The biggest company in the APS-C market is Samsung who has $40 Billion in cash Hmmm. Maybe Pentax should have kept their old partnership going with Samsung? And if Samsung bought them instead of Ricoh, that would have been interesting.

05-09-2013, 05:07 PM	#13
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by oppositz Tomorrow there will likely be a FF announcement.... Truth. It always happens like that.

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05-09-2013, 05:30 PM	#14
jogiba Banned Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Millstone,NJ Posts: 6,491	Originally posted by causey From Wikipedia: It's not as if the most logical use of that cash is towards securing Samsung's position on the APS-C market. Samsung has lots of things to look after. The fact that Samsung has the cash to buy C/N doesn't show it can buy them. There might not be any economic reason to do so, just as it might not make sense for them to build artificial islands in the middle of Pacific. Samsung sells more cameras worldwide than any company on the planet and the APS-C market is not on their radar screen and I was just showing who is largest company who sells APS-C cameras.

05-09-2013, 05:47 PM	#15
twitch Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 4,571	Samsung does sell APS-C cameras though, there were a heap of NX offerings last time I checked