[Kunzite]

Indeed, until a proper test is made (preferably on a SR-equipped FF DSLR) we simply can't know for sure. What we found out is that it appears to cover the format; the question is how well?
Since Pentax is targeting the FF market, it doesn't make sense to launch a $7000 APS-C only super-telephoto; as such kind of products are not replaced often. However, this was a Hoya-Pentax project, who knows what restrictions were incorporated into the design (besides it not being a telephoto).

[Clavius]

I think the reason why Pentax FF is taking so long is much simpeler. They're just tiny company doing huge things. Look at how long it took to develope the 645D.

What if Pentax hurried up FF developement? What if they, under pressure of the FF-demanding users, cut corners and do beta-testing on those users? Imagine what a load of critisism they would receive. I remember when the K-5 was just launched they were also accused of beta-testing on users because it still had some quirks in the initial firmwares.

[Anvh]

645D is not a good example. From what i've read they have mostly put it off because of the cost of the production and the high price for the user so not so much because of development.

[Fogel70]

I think it also might be a matter of timing for them to release a FF.
They might want to release the 645D II with larger sensor or higher MP (or both) before FF.
So a 645D II with something like 1.1 crop (37x49mm) 60MP sensor has to be out before FF. But that probably cost something like $15000+, so they might just go for 60MP but with same sensor size as on 645D.

My guess is that Pentax first FF will not compete with Canon 6D or Nikon D600, but will probably be closer to Nikon D800 in price ($2500-3000), and with lower specification. So if possible they might opt for 36 MP sensor to get some advantage over budget FF. Pentax will most likely have same priority on FF as on APS-C (IQ, OVF, ergonomics, small size, build quality and WS). A first gen product is hardly ever a budget version, unless you can get some economics of scale over competition, like Pentax has in medium format. But that will not happen against canikon.

FF has taken much longer to develop than 645D, after all Pentax FF DSLR has been in development since 1999 at least.
But just like on 645D, FF has been on hold for long periods of time.

[bossa]

645D II will probably be mirrorless and with a FF crop mode. That camera would be small enough to be considered a FF and big enough to scare the hell out of Nikon. Adapters for Pentax FF lenses could help evade the lens availability issue at 1st, offering mount adapters for canon and Nikon lenses, as long as they weren't fully functional to the point that people wouldn't consider a Pentax lens. I'm not into marketing (you can tell) but to my mind it seems more likely they'd bypass FF and go directly to a 60MP 645D MkII with a hi-res FF crop mode.

[Anvh]

645D II will probably be mirrorless and with a FF crop mode.

There is one little problem with that, i'm not sure but i believe al sensor that size are CCD and those do heat up quite a lot.

They can actually go grazier, a mount shorter and larger then the K mount and then "speedbooster" idea so a teleconverter that make lenses wider.

[Fogel70]

645D II will probably be mirrorless and with a FF crop mode. That camera would be small enough to be considered a FF and big enough to scare the hell out of Nikon. Adapters for Pentax FF lenses could help evade the lens availability issue at 1st, offering mount adapters for canon and Nikon lenses, as long as they weren't fully functional to the point that people wouldn't consider a Pentax lens. I'm not into marketing (you can tell) but to my mind it seems more likely they'd bypass FF and go directly to a 60MP 645D MkII with a hi-res FF crop mode.

I don't think a camera like that would worry Canon and Nikon at all, as the price on it would probably be at least as on 645D today ($7000+).

A much better idea IMO would be to make a mirrorless APS-C camera with a optimized "speed booster" adapter for fully support FF K-mount lenses. That way Pentax could market a "FF solution" with much lower price than Canikon FF DSLR.

[Kunzite]

I absolutely agree with Clavius, the must not cut corners. Major electronic components can be shared between 3 formats (high-end APS-C, FF, 645), but for example the FF should have a dedicated AF system - properly sized for the format.

645D is not a good example. From what i've read they have mostly put it off because of the cost of the production and the high price for the user so not so much because of development.

The sensor (they started with an 18MP one IIRC) was also given as a reason to postpone the product.

645D II will probably be mirrorless and with a FF crop mode.

I doubt it will not be a SLR, but we'll see. My bet is on a DSLR, with some neat (for DMF) advancements. Given the low pixel density, they can indeed increase the pixel count without increasing (much) the sensor size, so it could still remain affordable for a DMF.
Kitazawa-san indeed said a MF mirrorless would make sense, more than for a FF camera, because of the mirror vibrations; but that was a theoretical discussion with (I suppose) no immediate implications on the real product.
Making the 645DII a mirrorless means a new lens line, just when they will have to work hard launching K-mount FF lenses. Adequate cooling would be required (for continuous LV mode); can they do that with a weather sealed body?

[Fogel70]

Adequate cooling would be required (for continuous LV mode); can they do that with a weather sealed body?

They could use the whole body frame as a heatsink even if WS, and in rain the cooling will be improved.
Would be nice in cold winter too, as you would not have to wear gloves.

But in hot summer you might have to splash it with water a few times to cool it off.

[Kunzite]

Yes, heatpipes and using part of the body as a radiator. Big and sort of complicated, but then it's DMF so it could work.
But I'll let them solve the technical issues, since they know better (being their job).

[Aristophanes]

Based on?

10% of Nikon's FF sales is what the skuttlebut is in Hogan-land, assuming the initial product is not grossly sub-standard to the D800 in some very significant way. That puts them at about 30,000 units in the first year for a ~$3K camera


It actually sold 10,000 in the first 18 months (source: Joseph Wisniewski)

.

But Nikon and Canon have established pro markets and support systems. They have institutional buyers. Pentax has very little of that subsidy. That's the killer because Pentax can really only access the independent pro and their established prosumer base. A $2,000 camera body and the range of lenses leaves much less total market for Pentax compared to Canikon. Sony is in the same boat. They go FF and the market yawns, even with steep price discounts and a crossover Zeiss lens factory working alongside.

I have no doubt Pentax FF is coming, but the price for units has to drop to prosumer mainstream levels...maybe a little higher. I'm not sure the market is there yet, D600 and all.

[Aristophanes]

Yes, heatpipes and using part of the body as a radiator. Big and sort of complicated, but then it's DMF so it could work.
But I'll let them solve the technical issues, since they know better (being their job).

They already do that. Open up a DSLR and you see the circuit boards have attachments to the frame and there is space for air circulation.

One of the biggest reasons why DSLR's are larger relative to their film 135 counterparts is the need to power, stabilize, and cool the large circuit systems. The shells of DSLR's are thick to shield and absorb, protecting the circuitry.

[Fogel70]

Yes, heatpipes and using part of the body as a radiator. Big and sort of complicated, but then it's DMF so it could work.
But I'll let them solve the technical issues, since they know better (being their job).

Another issue to solve is how to power the camera, as the standard battery used today might not last more than an hour. So Pentax might have to find a way to design a miniaturized cold fusion device first.

[Kunzite]

I don't think they're using heatpipes, but heatsinks or even EM shields with no cooling purpose. A heatpipe would be a step up in cooling, and it doesn't require power. I'm not sure it would be necessary... maybe with introduction of video?

[normhead]

my goodness, how we have strayed... I can almost 100% guarantee you, nothing like this conversation has ever taken place in the Pentax employee lunch room... you guys have way too much time on your hands...