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06-30-2013, 11:50 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
I wasn't talking about FF either. Just about "unconfirmed, speculated something“.
That why I called your post a misunderstanding I was talking about Ralf's interpretation.

I'd say the gap was in 2011, with the Q being the only ILC launched.

07-01-2013, 12:33 AM   #17
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I assume it's impossible, but can they just whack a FF sensor in a K-5 body?
07-01-2013, 01:33 AM   #18
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They can do something similar, like nikon did with d600 that looks like a d7000 with a bit larger pentaprism. And I think they already did, but the main issue is they dont have any lenses...just some film prime lenses, but thats all.
07-01-2013, 01:41 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChrisJowett Quote
I assume it's impossible, but can they just whack a FF sensor in a K-5 body?
Of course they can't "just whack a FF sensor". The mirror box, the mirror mechanism, the viewfinder, AF, shutter, SR platform etc. would all have to be redesigned/replaced. The electronics would have to be updated.
The body itself is IMO the least of their worries. Maybe they'll use a modified K-5 shell, maybe something new.

07-01-2013, 01:45 AM   #20
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Every DFA and FA lens plus every manual focus lens back to the 70's!
There aren't that many DA lenses really (compared to Canon & Nikon D-only lenses) putting Pentax in a prime position to re-launch 35mm cameras.
The major reversion that would make me very happy is de-crippling the KAF2 mount so every K-mount lens works properly.
We can get 3rd party Zeiss, Schneider, Nokton etc. lenses and adapters, but they're K only, so no aperture control if Pentax persists with the fiction that KA has support outside the fold.
A FF no fancier than the K-5 (with a KAF2 mount) would be an instant hit.
07-01-2013, 02:15 AM   #21
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Sorry guys, you're talking nonsense.
Fuji launched X system with zero previous lenses.
Q was launched with 5 lenses.
Pentax already has at least 6 lenses currently in production that support FF fully.
They need to introduce FF with two zooms, 24-70 and 70-210 and they'll fare quite fine for a year or more. People will start using all old lenses and new will come. 8 current lenses to start an FF is quite something for Pete's sake, considering eBay is full of old and quality glass. Even Canon and Nikon FF users buy old Takumars because they are superb for video shooting, etc.

Last edited by Uluru; 07-01-2013 at 02:20 AM.
07-01-2013, 03:36 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Pentax already has at least 6 lenses currently in production that support FF fully.
Pentax themselves describe the FA and DFA families of lenses as fully compatible with "Digital APS-C SLRs and Film SLRs". Film did not move in every direction, the Pentax digital sensors with SR tend to do so though. So there is a big possibility that the sensor slides into unusable portions of the image circle, or outside of the image circle.
07-01-2013, 03:41 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax themselves describe the FA and DFA families of lenses as fully compatible with "Digital APS-C SLRs and Film SLRs". Film did not move in every direction, the Pentax digital sensors with SR tend to do so though. So there is a big possibility that the sensor slides into unusable portions of the image circle, or outside of the image circle.

Or, following the simple Ockham's razor, Pentax officially says that all those lenses may work on old Pentax film 135 format cameras well, because right now Pentax now does not make a digital nor film camera in the 135 format.


Last edited by Uluru; 07-01-2013 at 03:56 AM.
07-01-2013, 04:00 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Or, following the simple Ockham's razor, Pentax officially says that all those lenses may work on Pentax film 135 format cameras well, because Pentax still does not make any digital 135 format camera.
Then please explain, using that same razor, why it DOES take so long for Pentax to market the FF? The most simple explanation would be that they have make some very tough decisions; to redesign a complete new lens lineup, sacrificing either backwards compatibility or SR in the process.
07-01-2013, 04:00 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by ChrisJowett Quote
Every DFA and FA lens plus every manual focus lens back to the 70's!
There aren't that many DA lenses really (compared to Canon & Nikon D-only lenses) putting Pentax in a prime position to re-launch 35mm cameras.
The major reversion that would make me very happy is de-crippling the KAF2 mount so every K-mount lens works properly.
We can get 3rd party Zeiss, Schneider, Nokton etc. lenses and adapters, but they're K only, so no aperture control if Pentax persists with the fiction that KA has support outside the fold.
A FF no fancier than the K-5 (with a KAF2 mount) would be an instant hit.

And the sale of FA Ltds will see an all new renaissance — even now many are choosing FA Ltds over DA Ltds despite the fact that Pentax makes APS-C bodies only.
07-01-2013, 04:07 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax themselves describe the FA and DFA families of lenses as fully compatible with "Digital APS-C SLRs and Film SLRs". Film did not move in every direction, the Pentax digital sensors with SR tend to do so though. So there is a big possibility that the sensor slides into unusable portions of the image circle, or outside of the image circle.
If I'm following the logic of what you say correctly, that surely is just a matter of centring the image frame with the image circle. As we're both aware, this matter of image clipping through SR has been debated hotly elsewhere in PF, several times. Even if the image circle touched all corners of the frame (the worst case scenario) the small amounts of SR necessary would reduce the image size marginally.

I know some people here are still not convinced that this is the case, but even 2mm of movement both ways would reduce the usable image to a 30 x 20, assuming that square corners and a 3:2 aspect ratio were required (greater, if not). 30 x 20 is considerably larger than APS-C – it's even bigger than APS-H (are you listening, Ron?) – but would require an active (or at least a bright-line frame) viewfinder to show the clipping, and allow you to compose the shot correctly. That, of course, is also assuming zero tolerance between image circle and image frame.
07-01-2013, 04:34 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
As we're both aware, this matter of image clipping through SR has been debated hotly elsewhere in PF, several times.
Yes, it always keeps coming back because it was never really proven wrong.


QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I know some people here are still not convinced that this is the case,
I'm one of them. Please use any Pentax FF lens on a Canon FF body like one of the 5Ds for example. You'll notice the corners are already not that good on a static sensor. Now, imagine what happens when that sensor starts moving around?


QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
but even 2mm of movement both ways would reduce the usable image to a 30 x 20, assuming that square corners and a 3:2 aspect ratio were required (greater, if not). 30 x 20 is considerably larger than APS-C – it's even bigger than APS-H (are you listening, Ron?) – but would require an active (or at least a bright-line frame) viewfinder to show the clipping, and allow you to compose the shot correctly. That, of course, is also assuming zero tolerance between image circle and image frame.
So, here you actually say yourself that it will cover APS-H and not quite 135mm, but that you would settle for that as being good enough? If I was a camera-maker (which luckily I'm not) I would surely not count on all my customers being as forgivable as you are.
07-01-2013, 05:01 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Pentax themselves describe the FA and DFA families of lenses as fully compatible with "Digital APS-C SLRs and Film SLRs". Film did not move in every direction, the Pentax digital sensors with SR tend to do so though. So there is a big possibility that the sensor slides into unusable portions of the image circle, or outside of the image circle.
How big? Did anyone any measurement? Why wasn't Sony affected by this "big possibility"?

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Or, following the simple Ockham's razor, Pentax officially says that all those lenses may work on old Pentax film 135 format cameras well, because right now Pentax now does not make a digital nor film camera in the 135 format.
I agree. They couldn't say the lenses would work on a future, uncertain 135mm DSLR.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Then please explain, using that same razor, why it DOES take so long for Pentax to market the FF? The most simple explanation would be that they have make some very tough decisions; to redesign a complete new lens lineup, sacrificing either backwards compatibility or SR in the process.
Nope, you're making technical assumptions there and those are never "most simple".
The simplest explanation - it all comes down to money. With a small user base and a significant investment, can it be done profitably? And there are many factors which could change the result: what are the margins required (or, maybe they could afford a small initial loss), sensor and electronic prices (lower price points would increase the volume), user base variations etc.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So, here you actually say yourself that it will cover APS-H and not quite 135mm, but that you would settle for that as being good enough? If I was a camera-maker (which luckily I'm not) I would surely not count on all my customers being as forgivable as you are.
That's only a worst case scenario - lenses covering exactly the 135mm format and not a mm more, Pentax not being able to control/synchronize the SR to alleviate the effects. And even in this worst case scenario, just cropping out a little would do.
Then, why panic?
07-01-2013, 05:03 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Yes, it always keeps coming back because it was never really proven wrong.
I don't think either of us is going to be convinced by going over that ground again.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I'm one of them. Please use any Pentax FF lens on a Canon FF body like one of the 5Ds for example. You'll notice the corners are already not that good on a static sensor. Now, imagine what happens when that sensor starts moving around?
I have a friend with a 5D2. If I had the time and a good adapter, I could test that first matter, but frankly, it's not a priority for me right now. Some controlled tests would be good to see, if anyone does have the time and inclination, though.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So, here you actually say yourself that it will cover APS-H and not quite 135mm, but that you would settle for that as being good enough? If I was a camera-maker (which luckily I'm not) I would surely not count on all my customers being as forgivable as you are.
I'm not saying I believe it, but, if it was true, in one sense, it would be like having an automatic crop performed when you mount an APS-C designed lens on a FF body. Switch on SR with certain film era lenses mounted, and that's what you get. Leave it off and you get the full uncropped image. What's the alternative? No FF K-mount? If you're right, Pentax can't have a FF K-mount with IBIS, unless it accepts cropping when it's active on existing or past lenses. The alternative is to scrap IBIS and move to ILIS, which means you always get the full frame on old lenses, but no way to use them with IS, so why do it?

However, I'm not convinced it would come to that, so really we're back to proving it's a problem in the first place. I'm sure Pentax knows, but they're not saying.
07-01-2013, 08:04 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I have a friend with a 5D2. If I had the time and a good adapter, I could test that first matter, but frankly, it's not a priority for me right now. Some controlled tests would be good to see, if anyone does have the time and inclination, though.
I have the 5D, i have the adapter...i dont have the lenses. But i think i can find some FA lenses in a shop between tons of canikon lenses and try them.
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