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07-16-2013, 07:33 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Hey, let's not limit them. A 24MP 'economy' FF and a 36MP 'pro' FF would be an eminently sensible Pentax FF lineup, also quite doable nowadays given sensor availability in those sizes and probable declining sensor unit costs.
Assuming (Sony) the fab makes either or both sensor(s) available to RicohTax in sufficient quantities, at a reasonably competitive price, with sufficent lead time to work their electrical engineering magic. Assumptions that we should not blithely assert.

07-16-2013, 08:18 AM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Assumptions that we should not blithely assert.
The whole FF thing is an assumption. What's the harm in another one or two?

Since Sony has been cranking out lots of 24MP FF sensors for itself over the last few years (A900, A850, A99, RX1), and doing the same for Nikon in 24 and 36 MP (D600, D800), my assumption is that Sony probably has tons of those sensors piling up in parts bins somewhere now, just waiting for other customers - like Pentax. Those two lead customers also helped pay for the initial fab production runs, so now things should be cheaper for follow-on customers - like Pentax.

Everything is falling gracefully into place
07-16-2013, 08:47 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
The whole FF thing is an assumption. What's the harm in another one or two?

Since Sony has been cranking out lots of 24MP FF sensors for itself over the last few years (A900, A850, A99, RX1), and doing the same for Nikon in 24 and 36 MP (D600, D800), my assumption is that Sony probably has tons of those sensors piling up in parts bins somewhere now, just waiting for other customers - like Pentax. Those two lead customers also helped pay for the initial fab production runs, so now things should be cheaper for follow-on customers - like Pentax.

Everything is falling gracefully into place
It may be that Sony have tons of this sensor laying around but that is because none of those 24mp FF cameras have met their sales goals. This should send some signals to Pentax....
07-16-2013, 10:38 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
That's a big claim to make, and one for which you should really provide some comparative shots to back up. Most of all, what do you mean by it? If sensor resolution is only part of the story (and, given that the pitch of both sensors is pretty much equal, we're really talking about print size for equivalent lenses), what's the rest? Out-of-focus areas? They've been mulled over to death in other threads here, and the Sony 35/2 can't be compared with anything equivalent in the APS-C line at full aperture (a 24/1.4?). It's worth pointing out that a dedicated, fixed, single focal length lens that isn't compromised by a reflex mirror is almost guaranteed to produce an image superior to an interchangeable equivalent in an SLR, particularly when that lens comes from Zeiss. So, are you seeing the advantage of the sensor format, sensor resolution, dedicated fixed lens, lens quality, or a mixture of all those? I suspect it's a mixture, and not just the result of sensor resolution, which I think is what Pål was talking about. Absolutely wrong? I don't think so. Partially wrong? Probably.
It may seem like a big claim only to those who have not seen the output from the RX1, and, to be honest, I would have thought the same until the day I got my RX1. And no, I will not be posting any samples. I have already stated that the RX1 trounces my K-5, but let me add this. There are quite a few RX1 owners who also have a NEX 7 (Sony 24MP APS-C sensor) with the Zeiss 24mm lens (36mm Equiv.), and every last one of them says that the NEX 7 is not in the same league as the RX1. That is about as close a comparison as you will get of FF and equivalent APS-C sensor/lens combinations. You are free to believe this or not. I only know what my eyes tell me and the eyes of other RX1 owners tell them. I suspect that the D600, having the same sensor, will be nearly as good, but I have no direct experience with that camera.

Rob


Last edited by robgo2; 07-16-2013 at 12:31 PM.
07-16-2013, 11:52 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I was talking about sensor resolution in the context of being able to print larger. There isn't much difference. You cannot go into a fine art gallery and pick the FF images from the APS ones unless we talk about the D800 and the lower mp APS. You need side by side comparisons of the same image. If you want to blow something out of the water printsizewise you need the D800 or the 645D. I'm not talking about pixelpeeping and I'm fully aware that FF has other qualities.
Until you have seen what the RX1 can produce, I think you should withhold judgement on print size. I am active on one of the Sony forums, where some members own both an RX1 and a D800. Amongst these owners are both gearheads and serious photographers. A surprising number unequivocally state that the RX1 produces better IQ. That's 24MP vs 36MP, so some of it must be attributable to the superb Zeiss 35/2 lens that is customized to match the 24MP sensor. It may not be possible to equal that level of IQ with interchangeable lenses that are not specifically matched to the sensor, but my point is that you should not make assumptions about what a high quality 24MP FF sensor can or cannot do.

Rob
07-16-2013, 12:50 PM   #96
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Ground moves under Pentax in the meantime

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Hey, let's not limit them. A 24MP 'economy' FF and a 36MP 'pro' FF would be an eminently sensible Pentax FF lineup, also quite doable nowadays given sensor availability in those sizes and probable declining sensor unit costs.
But for 2015: 36MP 'economy', and 54MP 'pro'.

.
07-16-2013, 01:21 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
because none of those 24mp FF cameras have met their sales goals. This should send some signals to Pentax....
But none of those 24MP FF's have been K-mount. That's the big difference. How could you forget?

And models like the D600 had to compete with perfectly decent existing FF cameras like the D700. A 2014 24MP Pentax FF will have no pre-existing Pentax FF models sucking up oxygen from the new guy. Then all they will have to do is make sure it's introduction is well executed (no oil spots, a few new lenses etc etc).
07-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
But for 2015: 36MP 'economy', and 54MP 'pro'.
They need to learn to walk before they can run...

07-16-2013, 01:30 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Then all they will have to do is make sure it's introduction is well executed (no oil spots, a few new lenses etc etc).
And maybe do something really radical, like advertise in the U.S.
07-16-2013, 01:52 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
like advertise in the U.S.
Sure.

But I think the buzz around a new Pentax FF will be pretty substantial (unless it is some ridiculously expensive or clumsy monstrosity) so marketing it will be the easiest job Pentax ever had.

Last edited by rawr; 07-17-2013 at 01:07 AM.
07-16-2013, 02:00 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
But none of those 24MP FF's have been K-mount. That's the big difference. How could you forget?

And models like the D600 had to compete with perfectly decent existing FF cameras like the D700. A 2014 24MP Pentax FF will have no pre-existing Pentax FF models sucking up oxygen from the new guy. Then all they will have to do is make sure it's introduction is well executed (no oil spots, a few new lenses etc etc).
But it will have to compete with a 24mp Pentax APS camera at a substantial lower price. In addition, Pentax have a much smaller marketshare than Nikon and Canon who can differentiate more (read cater to all tastes) without unduly cannibalization of sales.....
There will be very little buzz with a Pentax FF camera; at least if it is in the lower mp range. About as much fuzz as the Sony; all of their FF DSLR's are flops. If a Pentax FF DSLR had been easy to marked and sell it would have been here long time ago....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 07-16-2013 at 02:11 PM.
07-16-2013, 04:36 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
But it will have to compete with a 24mp Pentax APS camera at a substantial lower price. In addition, Pentax have a much smaller marketshare than Nikon and Canon who can differentiate more (read cater to all tastes) without unduly cannibalization of sales.....
There will be very little buzz with a Pentax FF camera; at least if it is in the lower mp range. About as much fuzz as the Sony; all of their FF DSLR's are flops. If a Pentax FF DSLR had been easy to marked and sell it would have been here long time ago....
It is entirely possible that the megapixel race will continue unabated and that we will come to see 36MP cameras as being basic, but at the moment, Canon, Nikon and Sony all offer FF cameras with sensors having 24 or fewer megapixels. The resolution at that level is really quite phenomenal. Is more always better? History suggests that people can usually be persuaded that it is, whether they need it or not.

Rob
07-16-2013, 07:04 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
It may seem like a big claim only to those who have not seen the output from the RX1, and, to be honest, I would have thought the same until the day I got my RX1. And no, I will not be posting any samples. I have already stated that the RX1 trounces my K-5, but let me add this. There are quite a few RX1 owners who also have a NEX 7 (Sony 24MP APS-C sensor) with the Zeiss 24mm lens (36mm Equiv.), and every last one of them says that the NEX 7 is not in the same league as the RX1. That is about as close a comparison as you will get of FF and equivalent APS-C sensor/lens combinations. You are free to believe this or not. I only know what my eyes tell me and the eyes of other RX1 owners tell them. I suspect that the D600, having the same sensor, will be nearly as good, but I have no direct experience with that camera.

Rob
Rob, it's clearly up to you whether or not you post samples to back up what you say. I'm not negating it, just looking to see exactly what it is you're talking about. So, let me make it clear: I don't know whether it's the sensor size, sensor resolution or lens choice or a combination of all three that makes the difference. You seem to think it's the sensor size that is the major contributor, so a back-to-back comparison with a DSLR that shares the sensor would be instructive, then we'd all know. I don't expect you to do this, but until someone does, we're just dealing with subjective matters. Don't take offence: everyone's entitled to their opinion, but those of us who don't have your experience need objective evidence before we'd consider forking out a substantial amount of money for such a camera as the RX1 (let alone a possible Pentax body using the same sensor), especially when we see conflicting claims about it.
07-16-2013, 10:54 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
none of those 24mp FF cameras have met their sales goals
It seems a99 has met:

(SR4) Sony A99 sales goal has been reached and surpassed. New price drops coming this summer. | sonyalpharumors

Btw, a99 has in-body IS.

And Pentax would have an unmatched production line from entry level to medium format DSLR if issued FF.

Last edited by bvg; 07-16-2013 at 11:01 PM.
07-17-2013, 01:37 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
Yep. Exactly. I want to go bigger and the D800E seems to be the sweet spot.
Sure, I have 645 lenses, but I just can't justify the 645D just to stay with Pentax.

The hole between the K5IIs and 645D should have something in it already, and is the basis for much of my frustration.

Actually, all D800 / D800E benefits can be get only if:
- you use tripod, good one
- you use mirror up function
- you use wired trigger, or similar, to avoid button push shake
- you use only the best lenses available, sharpness and contrast
- Focusing is done right, many times this requires service made calibration using actual lens set or live-view MF

and most important, D800E is better than D800 only if:
- you do not shoot wide open or close aperture too much, but use lens sweet spot, that is aperture closed to f:4 - f.5.6 range. This is the condition I seldom meet.

If you do not meet those conditions, paying more to get D800E is waste of money, . Here D800E is 700 € more than D800, so I decided not to buy it.
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