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08-26-2013, 03:24 PM   #196
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To sum it up, FF is biggest, heaviest, and best IQ. APS-C is smaller, lighter, and next to best IQ. M43 is even smaller, even lighter, and even less IQ. And then there're premium compact, regular compact, crappy compact, and cell phone etc.
There'll always be people who buy FF. As well as there'll always be people who buy APS-C and other formats. And I suspect the distribution curve will be the same for Pentax as it is for any other brand.
What are we arguing about?

08-26-2013, 05:55 PM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Are you saying that Canon 6D is better specified than Canon 7D for all users?

I can find many 4 cyl cars with higher spec than 6 cyl cars. It's just cars created with different purpose. A large heavy 6-cyl SUV might not have as fast acceleration or top speed as a small light sports car with 4-cyl engine. And you won't replace a sports car with a SUV.
And F1's are 4 cylinder.

There's no feasibility in DSLRs to make and sell a lesser spec FF vis a vis APS-C.

Once you cross the $1,000/unit barrier you're all in. We start splitting hairs over spec minutiae when what really matters is the price to sensor size ratio. Some feature are apparently quite expensive (1/250 flash sync) but write a list of must haves for a Pentax FF that the $1691 D600 doesn't have.
08-26-2013, 06:04 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by prime.partisan Quote
There'll always be people who buy FF.
What are we arguing about?
Fogel and Kunzite want a close to D800 Pentax FF at $2500, I am saying Pentax doesn't have the capacity to build lenses equivalent to that higher price point and will instead price their FF closer to the $1700 we sees the D600 now, and closer to the MSRP's of the K-5 series.

By the time anything gets going Nikon will have a D600 Mk2 with better AF and VF at $1699 MSRP. Canon may be looking at a cheaper FF too from some rumours. And then there is the FF NEX.

And because of the robust used market for pro durables D700's etc. we are seeing the near obliteration of the $1500 APS-C price point.
08-26-2013, 06:43 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And F1's are 4 cylinder.

There's no feasibility in DSLRs to make and sell a lesser spec FF vis a vis APS-C.

Once you cross the $1,000/unit barrier you're all in. We start splitting hairs over spec minutiae when what really matters is the price to sensor size ratio. Some feature are apparently quite expensive (1/250 flash sync) but write a list of must haves for a Pentax FF that the $1691 D600 doesn't have.
Actually the D7100 is a better spec'd camera than the D600 the only advantage for the D600 is the fact it has a FF sensor it is lacking in all other aspects.

08-26-2013, 07:21 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by hangman43 Quote
Actually the D7100 is a better spec'd camera than the D600 the only advantage for the D600 is the fact it has a FF sensor it is lacking in all other aspects.
Not on DR, ISO/gain and overall IQ. Nope.

"Lacking"? Really?

Then why shoot Pentax?

On by far the most important criteria the D600 creates a superior image,especially in low light.

You get a slightly older AF whereas the D7100 AF is probably why there is no D400. (The D600 has the same AF as its original sibling the D7000. What do you bet the next D600 will up that ante?). The 1 up on the Tv to 1/8000 is so rare as to be a non-factor. Slightly better rear LCD. Negligible FPS difference.

Lower noise, better DOF, higher DR, all favour the D600. If you weight features based on IQ then the D600 specs are excellent. Wait until V.2.0 probably in 2014. Because that is what Pentax will be up against. All Nikon is doing is classic retail model overlap of models at one above, one below price points. Their flagship APS-C and low-end FF will get alternating features as the DSLR upgrade cycles continues. Problem is this is mostly mature tech so not a lot to upgrade.

And third party review after review says the same thing: for absolute IQ get the D600. If money is a factor, get the D7100. Note the emphasis on value. Features vs. IQ, and not a huge difference feature wise.
And not a huge difference in size, either.
08-26-2013, 07:35 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not on DR, ISO/gain and overall IQ. Nope.

"Lacking"? Really?

Then why shoot Pentax?

On by far the most important criteria the D600 creates a superior image,especially in low light.

You get a slightly older AF whereas the D7100 AF is probably why there is no D400. (The D600 has the same AF as its original sibling the D7000. What do you bet the next D600 will up that ante?). The 1 up on the Tv to 1/8000 is so rare as to be a non-factor. Slightly better rear LCD. Negligible FPS difference.

Lower noise, better DOF, higher DR, all favour the D600. If you weight features based on IQ then the D600 specs are excellent. Wait until V.2.0 probably in 2014. Because that is what Pentax will be up against. All Nikon is doing is classic retail model overlap of models at one above, one below price points. Their flagship APS-C and low-end FF will get alternating features as the DSLR upgrade cycles continues. Problem is this is mostly mature tech so not a lot to upgrade.

And third party review after review says the same thing: for absolute IQ get the D600. If money is a factor, get the D7100. Note the emphasis on value. Features vs. IQ, and not a huge difference feature wise.
And not a huge difference in size, either.

You said better spec'd not better performer the D7100 is better spec'd it has better AF it does 1/8000 where the D600 is only 1/4000 D7100 has better screen and faster flash sync also the D7100 has a more robust chassis. The performance pluses you mention are because of the FF sensor when it comes to specs the D7100 wins.
1/8000 might be rare to you but I was just shooting this week end and had multiple pics that had shutter speeds of over 1/5000 @ f/4
08-26-2013, 10:55 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not on DR, ISO/gain and overall IQ. Nope.
Lower noise, better DOF, higher DR, all favour the D600. If you weight features based on IQ then the D600 specs are excellent. Wait until V.2.0 probably in 2014. Because that is what Pentax will be up against. All Nikon is doing is classic retail model overlap of models at one above, one below price points. Their flagship APS-C and low-end FF will get alternating features as the DSLR upgrade cycles continues. Problem is this is mostly mature tech so not a lot to upgrade.
.
You are not going to take advantage of most of the IQ advantage on FF by using f/4 zooms instead of f/2,8 on APS-C. So you need to spend more on FF lenses to really take advantage of the improved IQ potential.
08-26-2013, 11:10 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
You are not going to take advantage of most of the IQ advantage on FF by using f/4 zooms
Could you elucidate on this point, please? I use F2.8 and f4 lenses on my FF camera, and I don't see any difference in IQ in normal situations. Unless you mean those occasions when one needs full aperture and have to up the ISO by a stop for the f4. For my part, I rarely have to use wide open aperture on my zooms. When I need the light, I tend to use fast primes. Or is your point that f2.8 lenses are optically superior to f4? This depends a lot on the lens in question. I'd be interested to know other people's take on this, as well.

08-26-2013, 11:50 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Could you elucidate on this point, please? I use F2.8 and f4 lenses on my FF camera, and I don't see any difference in IQ in normal situations. Unless you mean those occasions when one needs full aperture and have to up the ISO by a stop for the f4. For my part, I rarely have to use wide open aperture on my zooms. When I need the light, I tend to use fast primes. Or is your point that f2.8 lenses are optically superior to f4? This depends a lot on the lens in question. I'd be interested to know other people's take on this, as well.
I'm talking about the majority of users that want to use zoom lenses. As soon as it's not possible to use base ISO with a f/4 on FF the advantage of FF will be lost compared to a f/2.8 lens on APS-C. It also happens when having to stop down to to same DOF on both formats and not being able to use base ISO.

On base ISO the IQ advantage might be too small on FF to get the majority of users to upgrade to FF for just that. And those users looking for best possible IQ on base ISO might want D800.
08-27-2013, 12:19 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
There's no feasibility in DSLRs to make and sell a lesser spec FF vis a vis APS-C.
Yet this is exactly what you're asking for, with that $1650 camera of yours. If Canon and Nikon can't do it for $2100, Pentax should do it $450 cheaper?
08-27-2013, 02:51 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Could you elucidate on this point, please? I use F2.8 and f4 lenses on my FF camera, and I don't see any difference in IQ in normal situations. Unless you mean those occasions when one needs full aperture and have to up the ISO by a stop for the f4. For my part, I rarely have to use wide open aperture on my zooms. When I need the light, I tend to use fast primes. Or is your point that f2.8 lenses are optically superior to f4? This depends a lot on the lens in question. I'd be interested to know other people's take on this, as well.
For some people, the advantage of a large apereture is that is enables a Teleconverter to be added satisfactorily. I know people with lenses such as the Canon 300mm f/2.8 who then add a Canon 1.4x or 2x Teleconverter, giving them a large focal length range (using just one lens) while still have a reasonable aperture at the long end.
08-27-2013, 04:01 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yet this is exactly what you're asking for, with that $1650 camera of yours. If Canon and Nikon can't do it for $2100, Pentax should do it $450 cheaper?
You cannot get better IQ from APS-C in near equivalent gen sensors with FF.

That's the whole point of larger sensors.

If they come in at the same price point get the FF.

And Nikon is doing it for $1700. Multiple vendors. Kills high-end APS-C.
08-27-2013, 05:08 AM   #208
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You said:
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
There's no feasibility in DSLRs to make and sell a lesser spec FF vis a vis APS-C.
"Lesser spec", those are your words; you weren't talking about image quality. Now you're backpedaling, and say one should always buy the crippled FF instead of the much better specified APS-C, regardless of his needs?

By the way, $400 price reductions means they can't sell it close to MSRP; hardly a measure for success. But I'm not sure the most reputable stores, one that would not go for bait&switch, and would sell official channel products, are selling it that low.
08-27-2013, 09:50 AM   #209
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The top half of The Squeeze

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

And Nikon is doing it for $1700. Multiple vendors. Kills high-end APS-C.
One wonders why Pentax wouldn't have tried to skate to the where the puck will be then, and haven't been releasing FF-capable lenses on a roadmap for the last few years, lenses that would have sold well to aps-c customers in the meantime as well - instead of setting themselves up for playing from behind again? (And remember, for the past three years you've argued for stasis on Pentax's part here.)

I guess it's possible that Ricoh will throw Pentax into the mix with a FF body and six lenses in the first 18 months, but it's going to be very expensive to expand factory capacity and assembly lines to do so that quickly, and they've lost a chunk of potential upgraders in the meantime.

Or, they'll try to compete in the possibly-shrinking lower-end aps-c DSLR market with Canon and Nikon, at lower margins than upper-end aps-c or FF. Hmm..

Well, they can always try to compete with Canon, Nikon, Panasonic, Samsung, Sony, Olympus, and Fuji in the MILC/Fixed segment. Hmm..

Alas... there's always medium format.

.
08-27-2013, 10:33 AM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
One wonders why Pentax wouldn't have tried to skate to the where the puck will be then, and haven't been releasing FF-capable lenses on a roadmap for the last few years, lenses that would have sold well to aps-c customers in the meantime as well - instead of setting themselves up for playing from behind again? (And remember, for the past three years you've argued for stasis on Pentax's part here.)

I guess it's possible that Ricoh will throw Pentax into the mix with a FF body and six lenses in the first 18 months, but it's going to be very expensive to expand factory capacity and assembly lines to do so that quickly, and they've lost a chunk of potential upgraders in the meantime. .
There are a few (not enough) FF lenses lurking under the DA* identity: 55mm f/1.4, 200mm f/2.8, and 300mm f/4.

Perhaps (we can hope!) the lenses on the last roadmap will actually arrive, and some will be FF: perhaps the DA Zoom Limited (about 24-38mm?) and the DA* Zoom (about 18-85mm?)

Perhaps Pentax will launch the 1.4x Teleconverter which is on the roadmap, and position it as a way of reducing the crop of a lens by 1.4x, making some combinations FF. (That obviously isn't a complete answer, but it might cater for some of needs).

So there is still a possibility (I won't put it stronger than that) that Pentax will still skate to the where the puck will be a little bit in the next year or so.
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