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08-27-2013, 10:36 AM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You said:

"Lesser spec", those are your words; you weren't talking about image quality. Now you're backpedaling, and say one should always buy the crippled FF instead of the much better specified APS-C, regardless of his needs?

By the way, $400 price reductions means they can't sell it close to MSRP; hardly a measure for success. But I'm not sure the most reputable stores, one that would not go for bait&switch, and would sell official channel products, are selling it that low.
I've not backpedalled. None of the specs between the D7100 and D600 are substantial in any meaningful way for a mass market this size.

And the D600 is actually closer to the D7000.

The D600 is not "crippled" by any stretch. And many of the discounts are from B&M's.

08-27-2013, 10:48 AM   #212
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- 51 AF points made for the format vs. 39 AF points made for a smaller format
- 1/8000s shutter vs. 1/4000
- the D300s (dated, but top of the APS-C range) can do 7.1fps
But indeed, nothing that won't support your claims are meaningful.

P.S. Maybe repeating 100 times will make you understand, but it's the imaginary $450 less than Nikon's entry level camera which is crippled. Simply because the price differences must be made somehow.
08-27-2013, 10:55 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
One wonders why Pentax wouldn't have tried to skate to the where the puck will be then, and haven't been releasing FF-capable lenses on a roadmap for the last few years, lenses that would have sold well to aps-c customers in the meantime as well - instead of setting themselves up for playing from behind again? (And remember, for the past three years you've argued for stasis on Pentax's part here.)

I guess it's possible that Ricoh will throw Pentax into the mix with a FF body and six lenses in the first 18 months, but it's going to be very expensive to expand factory capacity and assembly lines to do so that quickly, and they've lost a chunk of potential upgraders in the meantime.

Or, they'll try to compete in the possibly-shrinking lower-end aps-c DSLR market with Canon and Nikon, at lower margins than upper-end aps-c or FF. Hmm..
I've never said stasis. I said it is all about price point. I have always said Pentax has FF as a skunkworks project. Pentax doesn't have the whole system to compete at the D800 price. Far too big a leap for the current base and the ramp up of lenses, especially zooms, is daunting. I agree, looking at older financials the assembly capacity and glass foundry output is simply not there. They'd have to double output for FF and one needs volume to double capacity. It's the lenses that cannot sell above average so the revenues from the body are much less of a problem. They need to sell a good # of bodies and a lower price point does that. The whole spec issue is a moving target. The D600 is pretty much at a point where the IQ renders most other ape differences moot.

FF has to come down in price for both the company and its user base, and now we are seeing non-grey market D600's into flagship APS-C prices. That is the bell tolling. Most posters here vastly overestimate the capacity of Pentaxians to shell out significantly more than they already to for APS-C. So coming in low and dirty is a workable strategy with modest lenses and much lower risk. It buys time. No Pentax FF could compete against a used D800.

And there is nothing wrong with companies slugging it out on the lower end. Even Leica has been known to slum it.
08-27-2013, 11:03 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
- 51 AF points made for the format vs. 39 AF points made for a smaller format
- 1/8000s shutter vs. 1/4000
- the D300s (dated, but top of the APS-C range) can do 7.1fps
But indeed, nothing that won't support your claims are meaningful.

P.S. Maybe repeating 100 times will make you understand, but it's the imaginary $450 less than Nikon's entry level camera which is crippled. Simply because the price differences must be made somehow.
Spec differences for maybe 0.5% if the market. If that. You are making mountains out of molehills. If you weight towards IQ every 3rd party review is unanimous that the D600 outclasses the APS-C.

The D600 is not crippled. And the next model will likely outdo the APS-C. It is more proper to compare the D600 to the sibling D7000 die to release dates. Look at the D600 review on DPR.

08-27-2013, 11:56 AM   #215
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You've made up those 0.5%, did you?
How about birding on a budget, by the way? There is a big world, outside those 3rd party reviews...

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
P.S. Maybe repeating 100 times will make you understand, but it's the imaginary $450 less than Nikon's entry level camera which is crippled. Simply because the price differences must be made somehow.
87 times to go...
08-27-2013, 12:14 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You've made up those 0.5%, did you?
How about birding on a budget, by the way? There is a big world, outside those 3rd party reviews...


87 times to go...
He has used only things that fit his agenda and has ignored anything that contradicts it.
10-11-2013, 12:48 AM   #217
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Am I ready for FF? Would I buy a Pentax FF camera? Heck yes! If and when a digital FF Pentax becomes available, I won't need to dash out and buy any lenses straight away. I would, however, be keen to have a 21 or 24mm f2.8 (not 1.8 or 1.4 as that might be too large and expensive), as I love this focal length. Another tempting lens would be something in the region of a 70-200, but I have the DA* 60-250 which might need a little bit of cropping (or might not, I'm not sure).

Personally, I hope Pentax goes small and light for any FF system. Lenses I would like to see would be something like 12-24 f4.5-5.6-ish (I have the Nikon 14-24 f2.8, and I hate it's size and bulk); an 24-105mm f4 and a 70-250 f4, along with a 400mm f4 and a 500mm f5.6 (dream on).

I fear, though, that to be seen as a "serious contender" they will need to have f2.8 zooms, and some fast wide-angle primes, though in catering for the enthusiastic amateur market, I think f4 for zooms and f2.8 for primes would be a good compromise between speed, portability and price.

Anyway, here are my FF ready lenses: back row, Sigmas 28-70mm f2.8 DF; 12-24 f4.5-5.6 DG, 20-40 f2.8; front row: Pentax FA 31mm f1.8; DF-A 100mm Macro f2.8; FA 77mm f1.8. I also have the DA* 300mm, which by all accounts cover FF, as well as some legacy manual focus lenses - A 24mm f2.8; A 28mm f2.8; A 50mm f2.8 Macro, M 50mm f1.4; M 135mm f3.5 and M 200 f4. Enough to be going on with, I think.
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10-11-2013, 08:20 PM   #218
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Seeing as Tamron's 70-200 F2.8 (the new one) is a very very good lens and is not made for Pentax I could see that being supplied in a Pentax DFA* format along with the Tamron 24-70 or a Sigma zoom in that range. There's no need for Pentax to reinvent the wheel when manufacturers have lenses they can appropriate for their own use.. at a cost of course.

10-11-2013, 09:28 PM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by hidden_au Quote
Hi there,

When (not if) the new full frame is launched, it will probably also be launched alongside with 2 or 3 brand spanking new DFA lenses.

The lenses available for any new camera, if chosen wisely, will add greatly to the appeal of the system. For example Olympus e-1 launched with three mid priced zooms, the Fuji X-system launched with three primes. In both cases, the lenses added to the appeal to and complimented the camera.

So the question is, if Pentax were to launch the full frame with 2 or 3 new lenses - what should they be?
They just need a 12-24mm.
The rest are covered for now with

WA
FA31ltd;
FA35/2
DA35/2.4 (shown to work on film)

Normal
FA43ltd;
FA50/1.4
DA50/1.8
DA40XS (shown to work on film)
DFA50/2.8 macro

Short Tele
FA77ltd;
DA70ltd (shown to work on film)
DFA100/2.8 macro

Long
DA*60-250
DA*200
DA*300

In fact a 12-24 is already available from Sigma.
There is also the Samyang 14 and 24mm
10-12-2013, 01:28 AM   #220
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I think the lack of a prime wider than 31mm would need to be addressed, though. I have the Sigma 12-24, which is pretty useful on APS-C, too, but I think that Pentax would prefer to sell its own lenses. At the moment, the whole situation is academic. We'll have to wait and see.
10-12-2013, 01:34 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
They just need a 12-24mm.
The rest are covered for now with

WA
FA31ltd;
FA35/2
DA35/2.4 (shown to work on film)

Normal
FA43ltd;
FA50/1.4
DA50/1.8
DA40XS (shown to work on film)
DFA50/2.8 macro

Short Tele
FA77ltd;
DA70ltd (shown to work on film)
DFA100/2.8 macro

Long
DA*60-250
DA*200
DA*300

In fact a 12-24 is already available from Sigma.
There is also the Samyang 14 and 24mm
Where is the Pentax WR wide angle zoom?
The Pentax WR mid-range zoom?
The Pentax FF replacement for the DA* 60-250mm f/4, which is too soft at the edges to be a true FF lens?

(I'm not interested in those short and medium primes).
10-12-2013, 01:36 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Seeing as Tamron's 70-200 F2.8 (the new one) is a very very good lens and is not made for Pentax I could see that being supplied in a Pentax DFA* format along with the Tamron 24-70 or a Sigma zoom in that range. There's no need for Pentax to reinvent the wheel when manufacturers have lenses they can appropriate for their own use.. at a cost of course.
Ricoh/Pentax would need to repackage any such lenses as WR, of course.
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