Originally posted by Kunzite You didn't say the word, but who can make a $1650 FF camera without cutting corners? That's $450 less than the D600's launch price, and Nikon had to reuse an APS-C AF.
A K5-level FF with a better, dedicated AF would be higher class than the D600. I'd say they should go even higher, co-developing a new APS-C high end camera, a FF and a new 645D - 3 formats sharing the same platform. After making the camera that's it, for several years; they aren't upgraded often. Several years with a product make with cutting corners, or with a decent camera?
And I'm still waiting for an answer: would you buy that cheap, crippled FF camera?
That's a solid price.
All the K-5 features with an FF. Sure. There's not much more a DSLR can do to improve the interface and tech. It's a very mature system.
I'd like a better tracking AF but don't require 12 FPS or a 1/250 flash sync. Those are apparently very expensive to achieve. Dual-SD slots? Waste of space. Better to have wi-fi. The AF system has been the Pentax Achilles' Heel for over a decade now and should be reworked to be on par with Nikon for all DSLR offerings; not FF exclusive.
I think prosumers will see value in getting the best sensor without MP overkill. In fact the market is ripe for an emphasis on a smaller form factor FF if possible even if that means dropping some current "pro" features like a top LCD, and a smaller battery. Canon is doing similar with the SL1 on APS-C and that has caught a lot of attention. Pentax has always been known for compactness. This is about the only area left in the SLR format to differentiate and Pentax can either lead or follow.
That's not crippled. That's just moving your customers from one model to the next efficiently.
APS-C will soon be a sub-$1,000 camera regardless. So that will leave FF as the only option to maintain revenues. I've always maintained for 4 years now that Pentax will have an FF camera, but it will solely depend on a sub-$2,000 price point.
Quote: Fogel wrote:
It's very unusual with a first generation product that are low end low price. First generation is high end for a reason, as cost is highest on first generation. Later generation can be made much cheaper as it takes much less cost to trim down specification of an already existing product, than to design it from scratch. So it will be hard to be competitive with a first generation product at low price.
Wrong analogy.
FF is not a first gen product. Pentax would be the 5th entrant after Leica, Sony, Canon, and Nikon. Pentax will use the exact same sensor as Sony and Nikon almost certainly.
This is an established product category. To borrow an automobile analogy, Pentax is more like Hyundai who moved into SUV's and mini-vans later than the competition with lower priced models but well-featured that got near equivalent reviews. Using that basis they've chewed away market share, which is the Pentax problem.
Take smartphones. Apple's iPhone (and Nokia tried this as well) went in high-end in an emerging sector. But now it is established all the talk is about lower end products at the expense of margins. The utility is no longer worth the same premium from 5 years ago. The first Android phones specifically advertised lower prices than the iPhone, prompting Apple to drop prices.
The camera biz right now is saturated and volumes are declining.
So for late entrants to a mature sector it makes sense to come in lower. That is how Pentax has survived as a camera company.
Do the math:
A flagship APS-C Pentax system:
K-5ii + 12-24 + 16-60 + 50-135 is ~$5,000 with a flash + tax
The D800 is designed around this concept:
D800 + 14-24 + 24-70 + 70-200 all f/2.8.
That's close to $10,000 with a flash + tax.
So in a stumbling market, how many flagship, loyal, Pentax customers are going to spend 2x what they last spent? Even if you drop the 14-24 and got to the 16-35 option you're only shaving off maybe $400. People buy D800's to shoot that f/2.8 awesomeness. Saving $400 on an in-between Pentax FF model is nowhere near enough wiggle room to make a difference.
The vast majority of households cannot make that leap even if they wanted to. Photography is primarily a disposable income dependent hobby market.
So the Pentax dilemma is even worse because it would only shift a minority % of its current base to FF while still struggling to maintain revenues from it bread and butter APS-C, and can therefore only grow by taking customers from other brands. Brands with better flash systems and more lenses and nearby service centres, and lower cost D600's, used D800/700's, etc.
So go back to the title of this thread and ask yourself which lenses do we need for FF and then design and price a body around that. Tackling it from the objective of the body first is backwards.