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08-08-2013, 03:33 PM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Watson Quote
Pentax is no doubt fully aware that a certain segment of their customers really want FF, that they just don't care if they lose this segment of their customer base
Its not about caring or not caring.

If they think they can make money off it, they will make one. If not, they won't.

08-08-2013, 06:22 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by psychdoc Quote
Its not about caring or not caring.
If they think they can make money off it, they will make one. If not, they won't.
Not just making money, but if the investment to design and manufacture will give more return for FF than for another product. All companies have more product ideas than they can pursue, with limited staff, time, and budget. Many great ideas never get past the concept stage, as others have more potential return.
08-08-2013, 06:54 PM   #18
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This is a topic that never seems to die on the forum, so I guess I'll take this opportunity to chip in once and then I can go and ignore it again. To my mind the issue isn't FF or no FF, but rather how well Pentax develops their products and how they then market them. I happened to be in the store where I got my K5 about 18 months ago, and the lack of Pentax stock was shocking. Basically the brand was like a non-entity tucked away in the furthest corner. This bothered me more than it might have just a few months ago, because it seemed like Pentax was making a few right moves. Sure, the K50 isn't much of an upgrade over the K30, but I think a lot people missed the point that Pentax now has a suite of cameras they can offer rather than just a single model. This same store, not too long ago had a Canon promotion and in the same flier were advertising packages around the T2i, T3i, T4i and T5i. Sure, some of those cameras are quite old, but this meant the store could offer a range of packages at different price points. What interests me about FF is not the body itself, but what lenses might then get promoted to go with it. I hear nothing but praise for the 77, 43 etc., and one could only hope they might come down in price and that we might see a revival of some of the other older gems is there was a body that needed them. And FF would give another body option, giving the stores more to sell the customer. Medium format doesn't count in this game - the cost is just too much larger than what one spends on APSC or FF gear.
08-08-2013, 07:14 PM - 1 Like   #19
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I doubt Pentax can make money with a FF venture, and I think Pentax knows that.
Just look at this forum (or even my local Pentax one)
Pentaxians are generally pretty 'smart' and smart with their money (ok, if I was not politically correct, I'd use the word 'cheap' ) , as well as knowing that they can do pretty well with their current gear (I'll be politically correct and use the term 'skilled' ) .
This contrasts very much with what I see from Canikony forums, where the advice is always "Go XXX and no need to look back" or other similar "good advice"

Pentax won't make much money with its 'fans' sticking to age old *istD or the best of the best K200 when the FF is released.
So many want to pick it up for bargin prices during the end of the product lifecycle.


I'll be happy to see a Pentax FF, and I'd certainly get one (either upon release or within 1 tier of price drop ... see I'm cheap too)
But I won't count on them coming up with one.

Those who want FF NOW, I suggest just look to a 2nd hand 5D, 5DII or D700 and end the pain.
There will be trade-offs, but at the prices that those cameras are at now, don't think there is much to complain about.
However, IMO, they can only give that shallower DOF look for a similar FOV compared to what APS-C can offer now.
Resolution.... there is a far more powerful option in a smaller package (Foveon)

08-08-2013, 11:19 PM   #20
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I have the K-5 IIs, with DA* and Limited lenses. What were you saying about "its 'fans' sticking to age old *istD or the best of the best K200"?
08-09-2013, 01:04 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I have the K-5 IIs, with DA* and Limited lenses. What were you saying about "its 'fans' sticking to age old *istD or the best of the best K200"?
Well the number off current Pentaxians dropping $ 3000 or 3000 euro on any FF Pentax is very limited. I too think they are cheapoos.
08-09-2013, 03:26 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
I doubt Pentax can make money with a FF venture, and I think Pentax knows that.
They also know that the era of charging premium prices (with high margins) för aps-c is over. Left is MILC, but why buy a company for its slr-mount and than abandon it?

If no FF is shown soon, I have no theory of what they intend to do businesswise.
08-09-2013, 06:16 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I have the K-5 IIs, with DA* and Limited lenses. What were you saying about "its 'fans' sticking to age old *istD or the best of the best K200"?
I'm afraid that me, you and others probably don't make up the majority from what I can tell by reading posts on PF.

QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
They also know that the era of charging premium prices (with high margins) för aps-c is over. Left is MILC, but why buy a company for its slr-mount and than abandon it?

If no FF is shown soon, I have no theory of what they intend to do businesswise.
Yeah, they sell for more w/ m4/3 (eg. Omd)
There's also Fuji, Sony (SLT and nex7).

Often, the trick is how to sell the Emperor new clothes.

08-09-2013, 08:06 AM - 1 Like   #24
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Sometimes I think Ricoh's success horizon and our want horizon are misaligned.
08-09-2013, 09:02 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Sometimes I think Ricoh's success horizon and our want horizon are misaligned.
+1, I suspect many members here of chasing a dream of a mythical camera company whose warts have faded over the years, I certainly am guilty of that. What we think or expect of Ricoh may have no connection with reality, or at least reality as viewed by Ricoh.

Pentax enthusiast vision: new DSLR style cameras so remarkable that other companies will stop advertising in shame, sold in all outlets at prices about 2/3 of competition.
Ricoh corporate vision: make money.

Many here panned the release of colored cameras, yet Ricoh obviously thinks that is a great idea, going so far as to allow custom builds and setting up the infrastructure to do that.
Many here panned the Q as a silly venture that would quickly die, yet Ricoh has continued development of new bodies and new lenses.
Many here panned the k-01 as even more silly than the Q, yet those who actually bought it loved it, and now we see a new production run.

I think that is proof enough that Ricoh is not thinking in the same traditional 'box'. They are going to add R&D money to the areas that are profitable and take it away from the areas that are not.
08-09-2013, 10:28 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
+1, I suspect many members here of chasing a dream of a mythical camera company whose warts have faded over the years, I certainly am guilty of that. What we think or expect of Ricoh may have no connection with reality, or at least reality as viewed by Ricoh.

Pentax enthusiast vision: new DSLR style cameras so remarkable that other companies will stop advertising in shame, sold in all outlets at prices about 2/3 of competition.
Ricoh corporate vision: make money.

Many here panned the release of colored cameras, yet Ricoh obviously thinks that is a great idea, going so far as to allow custom builds and setting up the infrastructure to do that.
Many here panned the Q as a silly venture that would quickly die, yet Ricoh has continued development of new bodies and new lenses.
Many here panned the k-01 as even more silly than the Q, yet those who actually bought it loved it, and now we see a new production run.

I think that is proof enough that Ricoh is not thinking in the same traditional 'box'. They are going to add R&D money to the areas that are profitable and take it away from the areas that are not.
Very good points. But I doubt any enterprise whose aim is baldly "make money" actually does. Making money is really a by-product of doing something extremely well (which includes producing it efficiently and selling it at the right price with the right margin over your costs). So an enterprise needs some kind of vision. After all, they will be putting their name on every single product so they need to believe in what they are doing. All sounds a complete cliche, I know, but that doesn't make it untrue. Our difficulty: we don't know what Ricoh's vision is and we probably won't know for a couple of years. It will only become clear looking back at a new and growing family of products (and also at where and how they are sold, which will be an important part of it).

In the meantime, the coloured cameras with their custom builds, the Q and the choice of a 28mm lens (rather than 35-45mm, e.g.) for the new GR show that Ricoh has deeper roots in Japan and perhaps in Asia generally than it does in the West. That, at the moment anyway, is part of their vision.

So I'd say there is quite a bit of culture clash going on here.
08-09-2013, 10:48 AM   #27
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If you don't need a FF, you don't have to bash at those who wants it.

I am guessing those who said FF is too much for them... are probably over 70 yo who can't carry heavy camera anymore? Just kidding.

As technology advances and manufacturing process improves, FF sensor will eventually come down to a price that is more affordable, and having one is no longer a life-and-dead decision for camera company. For those who can't wait, just get one. This, after all, is an golden age for photography: new cameras bring so many possibilities, and old high-end film camera being so cheap that you can own them and enjoy them.

We are all at different stage of life and needs are different, no need to bash on one decision!
08-09-2013, 11:00 AM   #28
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My guess is if Ricoh can figure out a way to adorn it with 'Neon Colors' there might still be a chance of a full-frame camera.
08-09-2013, 12:25 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
But I doubt any enterprise whose aim is baldly "make money" actually does. Making money is really a by-product of doing something extremely well (which includes producing it efficiently and selling it at the right price with the right margin over your costs). So an enterprise needs some kind of vision.
Agree. My comment was tongue in cheek re 'make money'. That has to be the primary goal but doing so without regard to anything else generally leads to short term profits and long term spiraling decline of the company. Without a long term, clearly defined (at least internally) company vision you get confusion, wasted resources, stagnation and eventually failure. I don't think Ricoh is that kind of company, but I do wonder if their vision has any congruency with ones oft expressed on this forum.

Maybe we will find out on September 5th
08-09-2013, 12:42 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
They also know that the era of charging premium prices (with high margins) för aps-c is over. Left is MILC, but why buy a company for its slr-mount and than abandon it?

If no FF is shown soon, I have no theory of what they intend to do businesswise.
I don't think APS has ever been a high margin segment. Therefore I don't think this era is over . It is hard to see that a cameras like the D600 or the 6D are high margin products either but they cost more than similarly bodied APS cameras.
Mirrorless sales has stalled and are on the decrease and it is noteworthy that Nikon's method of trying to meet lower sales is more entry level DSLR which means APS.....
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