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09-15-2013, 10:33 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Winder: He said "will definitely launch", didn't he?


Contax was the first company to announce a FF. One year later, Kodak was the second (with Canon the 3rd, following Kodak's announcement the next day). And Kodak's first digital SLR appeared 5 years before anyone else's (i.e. Nikon's). How is that being late?
It depends on which translation I read. It is clear they are working on a FF, but they have shown a FF prototype in the past and never produced one.

When I see a D-FA* 24-70 announced or a D-FA* 50mm F/1.4 I'll be a believer.

People question how long Sony will support the A-mount, but Sony just released a $1,500 50mm F/1.4. It will take years to recoup that investment, So Sony must be planning on keeping it a live for a long time. The 70-200 F/2.8 G II is on its way and a new 85mm F/1.4 with SSM is rumored to be close to production. Lenses are a long term investment for companies as some of these fast primes sell slow and take years to recover costs. Those lenses are the best indicator of a companies long-term plans.

I know Ricoh has a lot of work ahead of them and I believe they really do plan on producing a FF. I would just like to see some actual proof.

09-15-2013, 10:36 AM   #17
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Nothing is certain, not even showing a prototype - but the market is mature now, the possibility of them "changing their mind" is IMO much smaller.
For now, I assume they don't want to hint to hard towards a FF camera, to protect their high-end APS-C sales.
09-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You K-mount and m42 lenses both will work on your 5D or 5DmkII without problem.
You are talking about the PK and not the PKA here, right? As far as I know you would have to mutulate the PKA to fit on a 5D.
09-15-2013, 10:53 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
You are talking about the PK and not the PKA here, right? As far as I know you would have to mutulate the PKA to fit on a 5D.
Remove the aperture lever. A fully reversible procedure in most cases. Sometimes though, there is no other option then to cut it off. My three amigo's are now amiga's.

09-15-2013, 11:16 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You K-mount and m42 lenses both will work on your 5D or 5DmkII without problem.
Yes, but the K-mount lenses hit the mirror, and I don't want to remove the pin nor modify/shave the lenses.
5dm2 is fine with liveview.

As there are many other lenses that will work on 5d/5dm2 with simple adapter and no need to modify, I am not dying to use pentax glass on the canon FF.

Last edited by hoanpham; 09-15-2013 at 11:22 AM.
09-15-2013, 11:34 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
For now, I assume they don't want to hint to hard towards a FF camera, to protect their high-end APS-C sales.
Their high end APS-C is a $1,200 body. I would assume their FF will be over $2,300. Even if a K-3 APS-C is launched at $1,500 I don't see them competing.

Canon and Nikon both have sub-$2,000 FF, but they are not overly impressive units from a build and feature stand point. If Pentax takes the K-5 ergonomics and build quality and makes a FF at $2,500 I think they will be where they need to be assuming the improve the support technologies like AF and SR and add modern technology like WiFi and faster/bigger buffers or high speed cards.. Part of Pentax's problem is the "budget minded" user base. Pentax needs to step away from that and offer a higher spec'ed FF body. They have to attract buyers who are new to K-mount and not a bunch of e-bay shopping MF lens collectors. Leave the K-50 and the K-500 for the hobbyist with the antique glass.

Until Pentax improves support technologies like AF speed and SDM speed they will struggle. A newer, faster SDM with user upgrade-able firmware needs to be developed. The Sigma Dock is a great idea, but Fuji and Olympus can upgrade lens firmware on-camera.

I'm surprised that a company has not developed an automatic lens calibration system where you mount the camera on a tripod and using a test target allow the camera to take a series of pictures with both PDAF and CDAF and then the camera will calibrate the lens automatically.
09-15-2013, 11:46 AM   #22
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You can bet there will be "rumors" saying the FF will cost $1500. It happened with the D600, it will happen with the Pentax; and when the camera would be announced for $2500 or whatever, the damage will already be done.
But, who knows, next year there are two major shows, perfect occasions to display prototypes and even announce real products.
09-15-2013, 04:52 PM - 1 Like   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
For years, people argued that the reason for full frame was to reduce noise. That has essentially died with sensor improvements, to now an insistence on being able to have better artistic control and a narrowe depth of field with fast lenses. To me that argument is even less justified, it can be completely controlled by careful control of the setup at the onset. What it means is that to get the same impact with APS-C sensors you simply do not shoot the same way as you would with full frame, not that the shots can't be done.
The amount of sour grapes over Pentax's failure to release a FF body never ceases to amaze me. People will find whatever justification they need to rationalize Pentax's failure to meet this market segment.

No, not everyone needs full frame, but you're dismissing the benefits of full frame simply because Pentax doesn't offer one. The second Pentax offers a FF body posts like these will disappear forever.

The only way to achieve similarly shallow depth of field is to change the composition of the picture. If you back up and use a longer lens you will get less apparent depth-of-field. This is not possible in all situations. Similarly the only way to replicate the natural field-of-view is a telecompressor. It also provides an absolute advantage in megapixel counts, but more importantly it avoids the very low diffraction limits that are coming with the increased megapixel counts on modern crop sensors.

QuoteQuote:
Full frame is not the be all and end all. It is promoted by camera companies that did not compete in medium format in the film era.
You really don't know what you're talking about. It's a dubious theory to start with since only two companies presently make FF cameras, not exactly a huge sample size, but it doesn't even hold up on that limited basis.

Nikon certainly manufactured medium format lenses, some of them with extremely high reputations. For example Bronica and the Plaubel Makina used Nikkor lenses. They were also heavily into large-format lenses, Nikkor-W and -SW types remain some of the best LF lenses available, and offer some solutions that simply don't exist outside of their lineup (the Nikkor-T interchangeable-cell lenses).

e: And both Contax and Kodak had their own medium format lineups. Contax is still one of the better ones out there, and some of the Kodak lineup is really the stuff of legends. I didn't realize they had put out FF bodies too.

I'm not even sure what your implication is supposed to be, that because they didn't make MF cameras it proves that larger sensors aren't better?

This entire post SCREAMS "I didn't want that full frame anyway".


Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 09-15-2013 at 05:16 PM.
09-15-2013, 10:07 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
This entire post SCREAMS "I didn't want that full frame anyway".
FF is a dead end anyway

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
09-16-2013, 07:16 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Full frame is not the be all and end all. It is promoted by camera companies that did not compete in medium format in the film era.
Well said!

And if (I do not say when) Ricoh Imaging were ever to release a Pentax FF, would that be at an "affordable, entry level" price, where the same camera companies seem to have a hard time earning a sustainable profit?
09-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
Been following that, pretty interesting development indeed!

What it really means is that, if it comes to pass, the 645D's honeymoon period may be over.

.
09-16-2013, 12:57 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
the 645D's honeymoon period may be over.
It will be interesting to see how Nikon and Canon market and push any MF offerings of theirs.

Clearly they will want to eat Phase One, Hasselblad, and Pentax's lunch, but will they also want to risk eating into their FF high-end products?

Maybe we will see a $2000 645D from Pentax soon to kill at birth anything Canon is planning to do Anyway, I look forward to any developments here pushing FF prices even further down.
09-16-2013, 01:06 PM   #28
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I'm still waiting for the Samsung MF camera, rumored years ago
09-16-2013, 01:51 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stone G. Quote
Well said!

And if (I do not say when) Ricoh Imaging were ever to release a Pentax FF, would that be at an "affordable, entry level" price, where the same camera companies seem to have a hard time earning a sustainable profit?
As has been discussed before, you can't target just one market segment forever. Canon and Nikon have upmarket bodies that sell for much higher prices, which help finance the development of new technologies and lenses that eventually end up in the consumer-level bodies.

A few 7Ds pay for the development costs of a whole lot of T3s.
09-16-2013, 02:09 PM - 2 Likes   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
FF is a dead end anyway

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
Small sensors are inherently a dead end if you want to increase pixel counts. This is one major reason why I say the belief that FF holds no benefit over crop to be absurd.

The problem is that to increase resolution you either need the sensors to get bigger, or you need the pixel pitch to get finer. If the pixel pitch is smaller than the Airy disc, then you don't gain any effective resolution, you're just getting more pixels carrying the same amount of information. A bigger copy of a blurry image doesn't help.

The Airy disc becomes bigger as the aperture becomes smaller. This is where the "diffraction limit" comes from. Traditionally the pixel pitch has been high enough that this only kicks in around f/11, but modern sensors like the D3200 (24mp crop, 3.85 micron) are diffraction limited by f/6.3 or so. As the megapixel counts increase, this number will continue to lower.

That has huge practical implications for lens design, the only other way to get more effective resolution with an increased pixel count is to make fast lenses that deliver those diffraction-limit levels of resolution right from wide open - which is what we've seen happening with the Sigma 35/1.4 and their other superfast lenses (f/1.8 crop zoom and f/2 FF zoom), or perhaps the new Zeiss 55/1.4.

Recommended reading: Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks

I think there's a couple possible scenarios here. One is that FF stays relatively expensive and people are content with 24mp of resolution. But if the megapixel counts keep climbing it's technologically inevitable that larger sensors are going to take over. Full frame at first, then back up to crop-MF probably.

I still hold out hope that someday someone will come up with a cheap way to print sensors onto a big piece of Mylar or something like that and using LF gear with a large digital sensor will become practical.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 09-16-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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