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09-16-2013, 07:58 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I'm still waiting for the Samsung MF camera, rumored years ago
Samsung said it was just a prototype, but they went to a log of expense to develop and build a couple of them and some lenses. I kind of liked the look of it.

09-16-2013, 08:41 PM - 1 Like   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
What it really means is that, if it comes to pass, the 645D's honeymoon period may be over.
Very nicely put.

Too bad, Pentax was never able to carve out a "budget FF"-honeymoon period for themselves.

I'm sure Pentax would have sold a number of pre-D600/6D-era FF cameras to all sorts of people.

The native market that they are facing now, is much smaller.

Anyhow, while I'm sure that we won't see a Pentax FF in 2014 yet, I'm rather sure that 2015 will be the year when will see a Pentax FF:
  1. Ricoh is committed to making Pentax a major brand again.
  2. Pentax engineers openly talked about FF development.
  3. The market pressure increases. If Ricoh wants to sell cameras with more than budget-level margins, they have to go FF. The space for higher margin APS-C flagships is disappearing.
09-16-2013, 10:07 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
The native market that they are facing now, is much smaller.
QuoteQuote:
The space for higher margin APS-C flagships is disappearing.
Both these points are somewhat the same, both advanced APS-C and FF markets are likely satisfied with replacement only sales at this point. Most shooters are satisfied with the quality of the bodies they have bought since the introduction of the K5, for example,

Lyon do not really need higher resolution, the quality of shots is exceptional, and it is only minor improvements now not leaps and bounds, like the progression was from *istD to K10D to K7D to K5D. Each of those bodies was a substantial step forward, but even in today's world the *istD in some conditions can still hold up well.

Like the great surge of the SLR in the 1980's I suspect there will be a down turn very soon, or at least a saturation point.
09-16-2013, 11:25 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Samsung said it was just a prototype, but they went to a log of expense to develop and build a couple of them and some lenses. I kind of liked the look of it.
I don't think Samsung ever confirmed that cubic thing was a medium format camera. When questioned about it, they responded:
"We have the technology to develop a medium format cameras but we are not going to do that because this is not our market. Samsung is a manufacturer that focuses on a broad market – we are not a niche manufacturer like Hasselbald or Lieca. What you see in the image was developed for internal purposes in order to look into future technologies. At this point we have no plans to release it to the public. We have done similar things with lenses – for example we developed a 1000mm lens for astronomical use – but again just for internal purposes."
Samsung: "We have the technology to develop a medium format cameras but we are not going to do that" | Photo Rumors

For all we know, it probably was just a square NX, and the mount itself seems about NX-sized.

09-17-2013, 06:19 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I don't think Samsung ever confirmed that cubic thing was a medium format camera. When questioned about it, they responded:
"We have the technology to develop a medium format cameras but we are not going to do that because this is not our market. Samsung is a manufacturer that focuses on a broad market – we are not a niche manufacturer like Hasselbald or Lieca. What you see in the image was developed for internal purposes in order to look into future technologies. At this point we have no plans to release it to the public. We have done similar things with lenses – for example we developed a 1000mm lens for astronomical use – but again just for internal purposes."
Samsung: "We have the technology to develop a medium format cameras but we are not going to do that" | Photo Rumors

For all we know, it probably was just a square NX, and the mount itself seems about NX-sized.
It had a 36 mm x 36 mm sensor (according to Samsung), so not very big by MF standards, but still bigger than FF.

Last edited by Winder; 09-17-2013 at 06:29 AM.
09-17-2013, 09:11 AM   #36
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Do you have a link with Samsung saying anything about the sensor, or even that it's a medium format camera? Thank you.
09-17-2013, 12:14 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
It had a 36 mm x 36 mm sensor (according to Samsung), so not very big by MF standards, but still bigger than FF.
I don't think Samsung is that stupid to come out with a 36mm square sensor MF camera when a full frame mirrorless works with 200 million lenses and has the same size sensor in landscape mode or portrait mode (3:2 aspect ratio of 35 mm film in SLRs ) .
09-17-2013, 01:10 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
FF is a dead end anyway

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
This rumor has been around since 1978. I ain't joking.

I find it not credible. Nikon and Canons dilemma is volume in a shrinking and/or saturated marked. You don't solve that with making a camera system with sales potential of a few thousand units a year. A full assault on the mirrorless market is far more liklely.


Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-17-2013 at 01:23 PM.
09-17-2013, 01:20 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote

I think there's a couple possible scenarios here. One is that FF stays relatively expensive and people are content with 24mp of resolution. But if the megapixel counts keep climbing it's technologically inevitable that larger sensors are going to take over. Full frame at first, then back up to crop-MF probably..
The fact is that most people don't want larger and larger equipment and that smaller formats are way good enough already to print large murals. In addition, the trend for portable devices, something that include cameras and lenses, is miniaturization (within reason). Another trend is low(er) price. If you combine these two trends you'll see where the market lies.
One thing is cameras, another issue is lenses. Nikon and Canon get away with old FF lenses made for film but any new FF lens released now has to meet the standards of future FF sensors as much as a decade from now. If people want those fast lenses in order to get thin DOF, they better be ready to pay. It is even worse for MF; newly developed lenses cost typically $5000 each effectively limiting the marked for the systems regardless of possible, but unlikely, significant sensor price drops. There are no signs of lens price drops.
One need to realize that APS is a format in its own right and that many if not most who use that format have no interest in FF, just like most FF shooters have no interest in a camera the size of a Pentax 67 and lenses at $5000 each.

As for a Pentax FF camera; I suspect it will come with a handful of Limited lenses. All very compact and none very fast.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-17-2013 at 02:01 PM.
09-17-2013, 01:49 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by rlatjsrud Quote
Any rumors for FF??
QuoteOriginally posted by Franc Quote
be patient!
it will come
This is 100% accurate! The rumor will most certainly come! Again and again.
09-17-2013, 03:07 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
This rumor has been around since 1978. I ain't joking.

I find it not credible. Nikon and Canons dilemma is volume in a shrinking and/or saturated marked. You don't solve that with making a camera system with sales potential of a few thousand units a year. A full assault on the mirrorless market is far more liklely.
The only reason why the medium format market now is different than from 1978 is the price sensors and the up-front capital costs of the camera to the consumer vs. the long-term operational costs of film. 120 film cameras were actually quite affordable and were common.

Canon and Nikon are probably making the same cost curve analysis regarding sensor prices as everyone else and realizing that sensors are very different from film. Their up-front costs are more or less baked in, but sensors inevitably get less expensive as advancements in photolithography take hold, as they are.

In the end MF sensors will get much, much cheaper, and move down the price ladder. Different price points will be about sensor size, not necessarily specs. This is unlike the film market where a low-end, low-spec camera could shoot high-end, top-quality film. Also, so many specs are software related and new manufacturing techniques and inventory control make it less desirable to have multiple, oddly differentiated models for different markets (MZ vs. ZX, something Canon has acknowledged).

Where the Canon EOS 1Dx is now will be occupied an MF sensor camera in the future. Each price point and sensor derivative will come with optimized lenses which is an opportunity to sell optics, the raison d'être of these companies and what differentiates them from digital manufacturers of mostly electronic components, like Sony.

That's why I am critical of a camera like the Olympus OMD EM-1 because it tries the film era strategy of using camera specs to create a competitive gap in the market, where the real power is starting to reside in sensor size.
09-17-2013, 04:58 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
In the end MF sensors will get much, much cheaper, and move down the price ladder. Different price points will be about sensor size, not necessarily specs. This is unlike the film market where a low-end, low-spec camera could shoot high-end, top-quality film. Also, so many specs are software related and new manufacturing techniques and inventory control make it less desirable to have multiple, oddly differentiated models for different markets (MZ vs. ZX, something Canon has acknowledged).

Where the Canon EOS 1Dx is now will be occupied an MF sensor camera in the future. Each price point and sensor derivative will come with optimized lenses which is an opportunity to sell optics, the raison d'être of these companies and what differentiates them from digital manufacturers of mostly electronic components, like Sony.

That's why I am critical of a camera like the Olympus OMD EM-1 because it tries the film era strategy of using camera specs to create a competitive gap in the market, where the real power is starting to reside in sensor size.
Different price point may be about sensor size but this doesn't mean that the buyers on a certain price point will buy a larger sensored camera next time. He is more likely just happy to benefit from a downward price spiral. It will also change his view of what is reasonable to spend on a certain type of camera. Incidentally, I do not think we will see any major decrease in sensor costs. It is a pretty mature industry by now. And cost is related to their size more than anything else.
Add the points of lower size and weight, important in portable devices, lower cost, the law of diminishing returns and the fact that larger sensor market seem fairly constant regardless of new release and their price tells me at least that the maket for larger sensored cameras is limited.

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 09-17-2013 at 05:09 PM.
09-17-2013, 06:35 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Different price point may be about sensor size but this doesn't mean that the buyers on a certain price point will buy a larger sensored camera next time. He is more likely just happy to benefit from a downward price spiral. It will also change his view of what is reasonable to spend on a certain type of camera. Incidentally, I do not think we will see any major decrease in sensor costs. It is a pretty mature industry by now. And cost is related to their size more than anything else.
Add the points of lower size and weight, important in portable devices, lower cost, the law of diminishing returns and the fact that larger sensor market seem fairly constant regardless of new release and their price tells me at least that the maket for larger sensored cameras is limited.
The sensor is now the base for camera cost. not film. In the film era it was specs and durability. Obviously the greater the consumer investment the more emphasis on durability and other specs (K-500/K-50), but it will be much less of an effect than before. Sensors will e the baseline for volume points which will determine price points.

Downward price spirals can either be controlled as in the case of Fuji whose X-series is now tracing down in price by Fuji's ow release of new, lower-end models. They are clearly stating that after sensors comes VF's and their cost at a certain price point.

OTOH we have Olympus, coming in low and in bulk with m43 and when sales tank as there is very little need to upgrade on a rapid product cycle, they start trying to re-capture revenues with high-end products like the EM-1.

At a certain point downward price spirals stop because manufacturers cut production. Some manufacturers', like Olympus, have already done so dramatically and are much smaller than they were only 36 months ago. The only reason why FF has not come down in price faster like many expected was because there was a crimp on sensor supply. Even Leica had to crop at one point. MF will come down in price over the next decade and be affordable to more and more hobbyists.
09-18-2013, 03:33 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Both these points are somewhat the same, ...
I don't agree.

One point was about a period in time where a whole market was waiting for FF camera prices to come down to reasonable levels. Pentax missed that window of opportunity. This market has been addressed by the D600 and 6D. Not sure if Pentax had a choice at the time, but now they are unlikely to win any of those D600/6D owners back.

The other point is about the product type "high margin APS flagship" (and eventually, "expensive APS-C" lens) disappearing. So Pentax has to come up with new products that sell with more than entry-level budget margins.

I think these are rather distinct points.
09-18-2013, 06:08 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
One point was about a period in time where a whole market was waiting for FF camera prices to come down to reasonable levels. Pentax missed that window of opportunity. This market has been addressed by the D600 and 6D. Not sure if Pentax had a choice at the time, but now they are unlikely to win any of those D600/6D owners back.
Why not?

Make a slightly better product at a slightly lower price. How about some unique lenses (FA Limiteds and their quirky, unique FL's).

Lots of options.

Different colours?
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