Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-15-2013, 10:33 AM   #16
Veteran Member




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,617
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Winder: He said "will definitely launch", didn't he?


Contax was the first company to announce a FF. One year later, Kodak was the second (with Canon the 3rd, following Kodak's announcement the next day). And Kodak's first digital SLR appeared 5 years before anyone else's (i.e. Nikon's). How is that being late?
It depends on which translation I read. It is clear they are working on a FF, but they have shown a FF prototype in the past and never produced one.

When I see a D-FA* 24-70 announced or a D-FA* 50mm F/1.4 I'll be a believer.

People question how long Sony will support the A-mount, but Sony just released a $1,500 50mm F/1.4. It will take years to recoup that investment, So Sony must be planning on keeping it a live for a long time. The 70-200 F/2.8 G II is on its way and a new 85mm F/1.4 with SSM is rumored to be close to production. Lenses are a long term investment for companies as some of these fast primes sell slow and take years to recover costs. Those lenses are the best indicator of a companies long-term plans.

I know Ricoh has a lot of work ahead of them and I believe they really do plan on producing a FF. I would just like to see some actual proof.

09-15-2013, 10:36 AM   #17
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
Nothing is certain, not even showing a prototype - but the market is mature now, the possibility of them "changing their mind" is IMO much smaller.
For now, I assume they don't want to hint to hard towards a FF camera, to protect their high-end APS-C sales.
09-15-2013, 10:49 AM   #18
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
troenaas's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Norway
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 668
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You K-mount and m42 lenses both will work on your 5D or 5DmkII without problem.
You are talking about the PK and not the PKA here, right? As far as I know you would have to mutulate the PKA to fit on a 5D.
09-15-2013, 10:53 AM   #19
Veteran Member
Clavius's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: De Klundert
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,150
QuoteOriginally posted by troenaas Quote
You are talking about the PK and not the PKA here, right? As far as I know you would have to mutulate the PKA to fit on a 5D.
Remove the aperture lever. A fully reversible procedure in most cases. Sometimes though, there is no other option then to cut it off. My three amigo's are now amiga's.

09-15-2013, 11:16 AM   #20
Veteran Member
hoanpham's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Strand
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,366
QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
You K-mount and m42 lenses both will work on your 5D or 5DmkII without problem.
Yes, but the K-mount lenses hit the mirror, and I don't want to remove the pin nor modify/shave the lenses.
5dm2 is fine with liveview.

As there are many other lenses that will work on 5d/5dm2 with simple adapter and no need to modify, I am not dying to use pentax glass on the canon FF.

Last edited by hoanpham; 09-15-2013 at 11:22 AM.
09-15-2013, 11:34 AM   #21
Veteran Member




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,617
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
For now, I assume they don't want to hint to hard towards a FF camera, to protect their high-end APS-C sales.
Their high end APS-C is a $1,200 body. I would assume their FF will be over $2,300. Even if a K-3 APS-C is launched at $1,500 I don't see them competing.

Canon and Nikon both have sub-$2,000 FF, but they are not overly impressive units from a build and feature stand point. If Pentax takes the K-5 ergonomics and build quality and makes a FF at $2,500 I think they will be where they need to be assuming the improve the support technologies like AF and SR and add modern technology like WiFi and faster/bigger buffers or high speed cards.. Part of Pentax's problem is the "budget minded" user base. Pentax needs to step away from that and offer a higher spec'ed FF body. They have to attract buyers who are new to K-mount and not a bunch of e-bay shopping MF lens collectors. Leave the K-50 and the K-500 for the hobbyist with the antique glass.

Until Pentax improves support technologies like AF speed and SDM speed they will struggle. A newer, faster SDM with user upgrade-able firmware needs to be developed. The Sigma Dock is a great idea, but Fuji and Olympus can upgrade lens firmware on-camera.

I'm surprised that a company has not developed an automatic lens calibration system where you mount the camera on a tripod and using a test target allow the camera to take a series of pictures with both PDAF and CDAF and then the camera will calibrate the lens automatically.
09-15-2013, 11:46 AM   #22
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
You can bet there will be "rumors" saying the FF will cost $1500. It happened with the D600, it will happen with the Pentax; and when the camera would be announced for $2500 or whatever, the damage will already be done.
But, who knows, next year there are two major shows, perfect occasions to display prototypes and even announce real products.

09-15-2013, 04:52 PM - 1 Like   #23
Senior Member
Paul MaudDib's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 294
QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
For years, people argued that the reason for full frame was to reduce noise. That has essentially died with sensor improvements, to now an insistence on being able to have better artistic control and a narrowe depth of field with fast lenses. To me that argument is even less justified, it can be completely controlled by careful control of the setup at the onset. What it means is that to get the same impact with APS-C sensors you simply do not shoot the same way as you would with full frame, not that the shots can't be done.
The amount of sour grapes over Pentax's failure to release a FF body never ceases to amaze me. People will find whatever justification they need to rationalize Pentax's failure to meet this market segment.

No, not everyone needs full frame, but you're dismissing the benefits of full frame simply because Pentax doesn't offer one. The second Pentax offers a FF body posts like these will disappear forever.

The only way to achieve similarly shallow depth of field is to change the composition of the picture. If you back up and use a longer lens you will get less apparent depth-of-field. This is not possible in all situations. Similarly the only way to replicate the natural field-of-view is a telecompressor. It also provides an absolute advantage in megapixel counts, but more importantly it avoids the very low diffraction limits that are coming with the increased megapixel counts on modern crop sensors.

QuoteQuote:
Full frame is not the be all and end all. It is promoted by camera companies that did not compete in medium format in the film era.
You really don't know what you're talking about. It's a dubious theory to start with since only two companies presently make FF cameras, not exactly a huge sample size, but it doesn't even hold up on that limited basis.

Nikon certainly manufactured medium format lenses, some of them with extremely high reputations. For example Bronica and the Plaubel Makina used Nikkor lenses. They were also heavily into large-format lenses, Nikkor-W and -SW types remain some of the best LF lenses available, and offer some solutions that simply don't exist outside of their lineup (the Nikkor-T interchangeable-cell lenses).

e: And both Contax and Kodak had their own medium format lineups. Contax is still one of the better ones out there, and some of the Kodak lineup is really the stuff of legends. I didn't realize they had put out FF bodies too.

I'm not even sure what your implication is supposed to be, that because they didn't make MF cameras it proves that larger sensors aren't better?

This entire post SCREAMS "I didn't want that full frame anyway".

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 09-15-2013 at 05:16 PM.
09-15-2013, 10:07 PM   #24
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,913
QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
This entire post SCREAMS "I didn't want that full frame anyway".
FF is a dead end anyway

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
09-16-2013, 07:16 AM   #25
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: North Zealand, Denmark
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 1,516
QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
Full frame is not the be all and end all. It is promoted by camera companies that did not compete in medium format in the film era.
Well said!

And if (I do not say when) Ricoh Imaging were ever to release a Pentax FF, would that be at an "affordable, entry level" price, where the same camera companies seem to have a hard time earning a sustainable profit?
09-16-2013, 10:50 AM   #26
Veteran Member




Join Date: Dec 2007
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,237
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
Been following that, pretty interesting development indeed!

What it really means is that, if it comes to pass, the 645D's honeymoon period may be over.

.
09-16-2013, 12:57 PM   #27
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11,913
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
the 645D's honeymoon period may be over.
It will be interesting to see how Nikon and Canon market and push any MF offerings of theirs.

Clearly they will want to eat Phase One, Hasselblad, and Pentax's lunch, but will they also want to risk eating into their FF high-end products?

Maybe we will see a $2000 645D from Pentax soon to kill at birth anything Canon is planning to do Anyway, I look forward to any developments here pushing FF prices even further down.
09-16-2013, 01:06 PM   #28
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 15,132
I'm still waiting for the Samsung MF camera, rumored years ago
09-16-2013, 01:51 PM   #29
Senior Member
Paul MaudDib's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 294
QuoteOriginally posted by Stone G. Quote
Well said!

And if (I do not say when) Ricoh Imaging were ever to release a Pentax FF, would that be at an "affordable, entry level" price, where the same camera companies seem to have a hard time earning a sustainable profit?
As has been discussed before, you can't target just one market segment forever. Canon and Nikon have upmarket bodies that sell for much higher prices, which help finance the development of new technologies and lenses that eventually end up in the consumer-level bodies.

A few 7Ds pay for the development costs of a whole lot of T3s.
09-16-2013, 02:09 PM - 2 Likes   #30
Senior Member
Paul MaudDib's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Michigan
Posts: 294
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
FF is a dead end anyway

PhotoRumors has been reporting for a long time that Canon is seriously looking at a digital MF, as is Nikon now too.
Small sensors are inherently a dead end if you want to increase pixel counts. This is one major reason why I say the belief that FF holds no benefit over crop to be absurd.

The problem is that to increase resolution you either need the sensors to get bigger, or you need the pixel pitch to get finer. If the pixel pitch is smaller than the Airy disc, then you don't gain any effective resolution, you're just getting more pixels carrying the same amount of information. A bigger copy of a blurry image doesn't help.

The Airy disc becomes bigger as the aperture becomes smaller. This is where the "diffraction limit" comes from. Traditionally the pixel pitch has been high enough that this only kicks in around f/11, but modern sensors like the D3200 (24mp crop, 3.85 micron) are diffraction limited by f/6.3 or so. As the megapixel counts increase, this number will continue to lower.

That has huge practical implications for lens design, the only other way to get more effective resolution with an increased pixel count is to make fast lenses that deliver those diffraction-limit levels of resolution right from wide open - which is what we've seen happening with the Sigma 35/1.4 and their other superfast lenses (f/1.8 crop zoom and f/2 FF zoom), or perhaps the new Zeiss 55/1.4.

Recommended reading: Diffraction Limited Photography: Pixel Size, Aperture and Airy Disks

I think there's a couple possible scenarios here. One is that FF stays relatively expensive and people are content with 24mp of resolution. But if the megapixel counts keep climbing it's technologically inevitable that larger sensors are going to take over. Full frame at first, then back up to crop-MF probably.

I still hold out hope that someday someone will come up with a cheap way to print sensors onto a big piece of Mylar or something like that and using LF gear with a large digital sensor will become practical.

Last edited by Paul MaudDib; 09-16-2013 at 02:29 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
full-frame, pentax
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are we really THAT rare? abmj Pentax DSLR Discussion 7240 03-18-2024 09:59 AM
Would you buy the first FF if it is a K-01 or wait for the FF DSLR? slackercruster Pentax DSLR Discussion 19 07-18-2012 10:09 PM
Should I wait for FF? Considering upgrade from my old SLR Hmm Pentax DSLR Discussion 44 12-27-2011 08:54 AM
How long will you wait for a Pentax FF? johnmflores Pentax DSLR Discussion 74 06-02-2010 03:16 AM
Move to K-7 or Wait for K-8/FF? henryjing Pentax DSLR Discussion 60 04-22-2010 11:49 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:57 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top