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10-18-2013, 09:28 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Amazon lists are very United States-centric and tell nothing about sales in europe or japan. I understand that we, who live in the United States, believe that world revolves around us, but Pentax sells very few cameras in this country compared to the rest of the world. That doesn't mean that they don't sell a lot of cameras.
I acknowledged that it might be different in other markets.

10-18-2013, 11:25 AM   #32
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Re India and China -- an earlier post noted how incomes have dramatically increased in these countries over the last ten years. Amazingly so. Now, here I'm ignorant, and maybe someone could tell me -- is Pentax actively marketing in India and China? Are they letting the US market sort of go away... because, in comparison, it's just... small?

Of course, wherever you go, you still have to convince the buyer that purchasing that 36MP FF camera will make them a better photographer. But in an increasingly materialistic world, where we are defined by our possessions, that shouldn't be too hard.
10-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #33
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Ricoh Imaging started recently to seriously pursue the Indian market. That doesn't means they would ignore other markets, of course.
10-18-2013, 12:24 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It isn't about disposable income but about the willingness to spend if you can get the performance you need or want in a smaller and cheaper package. There is no gravitational pull towards larger formats where the only thing that stop you are lack of funds. This simply a wrong assumption; big size and longer lenses is not a bonus. It is hard to argue that the growth is going to be in the sub 5% of the market. The K-3 have a vastly larger potential for growth for Pentax than any FF body.
In the film days the only way to increase quality was to increase format. Still there was no mass move towards larger formats.
I can't argue with the points you make there, but they're the same regardless of the market you're talking about. I was responding to the notion that the market was close to saturated, not the potential buyer response, by pointing out that people only ever talk about the more mature, Western market, which is inevitably going to be more of a challenge.

10-18-2013, 12:25 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Amazon lists are very United States-centric and tell nothing about sales in europe or japan. I understand that we, who live in the United States, believe that world revolves around us, but Pentax sells very few cameras in this country compared to the rest of the world. That doesn't mean that they don't sell a lot of cameras.
If it's anything like their book rankings, then the rankings are not just sales but also expectations of future sales. (Two items might have the same sales in a sampling period, but one might appear higher on the ranks. The exact details as to why are difficult to determine though, as Amazon keeps the precise algorithm they use a secret.)

All this said: the A7 looks like a very nice camera, just not one that I'm currently interested in for a variety of reasons. (If I was to buy a FF Sony, I'd likely wind up with an A99 anyway.)

Last edited by g026r; 10-18-2013 at 12:52 PM.
10-18-2013, 12:48 PM   #36
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FF allows better control on distortion and DOF (and lens size) at the wide FL end. And that's why I am waiting for Pentax FF.

FF allows one to use cheaper and/or better wide angle lenses-e.g., a 28mm lens is much easier to design than a 18mm (1.5x18=27mm~28mm).
Ditto for Aperture. Staying w/ same example to get shallow depth of field a 18mm needs to be about f/2 to get same value as FF 28mm at f2.8.

So to get a fast, low distortion 18mm lens on cropped lens: big bucks--as compared to 28mm on FF.
10-18-2013, 01:13 PM   #37
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Pentax FF, let me think my current lenses if have any FF lenses

Tamron 28-75
FA 28-70
FA 50
M 50 x f1.4&f2
28mm
F80-200
135 f2.8
Tamron 90mm

Not FF lenses
Sigma 8-16
Tamron 17-50
DA 40
Sigma 30mm
DA 55-300
DA 18-55 x2
Sigma 17-70
Tamron 18-200

Looks even for me

I hope that coming Pentax FF can use croplenses also then no problem for me. Then have FF and 1.5x cropcamera in same body. I trust pentax will do this FF even I understand they do afraid cos they not have currently FF zoom lenses. But new sony mirrorles FF have show that its ok!

Just take K3 and put 36mpix FF sensor inside and do make modifications that are needed only. Tnx

Ps. I want even same dli90 battery to FF cos i have so many of them.

Ps2. No hurry, i will wait even few years for first pentax ff. I know its coming someday and its worth for waiting. Best FF camera for me, with IS using all lenses. What else i need after that...i will get FF wide and tele zooms maybe and whole package is there.

Ps3. Pentax srl user sinceyear 1996, i have no hurry here.

Ps4. Sun will shine again just wait and see

Ps5. Now playing: motorhead - stand by me, random from youtube, must have meaning

Last edited by Joojoo2010; 10-18-2013 at 01:34 PM.
10-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
Looking at the PR for the new Sony, the first thing that jumps out is the lens costs. Insane. Tell me -- if you were running Pentax, would you actually risk a lot of money making a camera that only a few people would buy? Does anybody actually want 24MP, let alone 36MP? Whatever for? There are very few professionals left... and, of those, VERY few who would ditch their existing Canikon gear collections. Forget that one.

What's left? Retiring baby boomers, who finally have time for photography hobby, share their images on the internet, and never print larger than 11 x 14. That's 16MP territory with cropping room to spare. But -- this group is price sensitive, and is NOT going to drop $1,000 on a lens. Not very often, anyway... the very rich 1% of this group is probably off in Leica-land anyway.

No. The K-3 is the perfect high-end camera for this demographic... and with the 16MP price range going down to the K-500, it's a complete lineup. All that's needed is to SELL it. Next time I get an AARP magazine, AAA's Westways, or National Geographic, I want to see a full page Pentax ad inside that front cover!
Y'know, 80% of statistics are made up on the spot.

From my personal experience (I'm Canadian, YMMV), addressing your points in (rough) order:

Lens cost too high? NO, it means the profit is high. Of course they want to sell that kind of glass!

It's LESS risky to make a niche camera than to make a model for Buy-n-Large but not be able to place it because the store buyers don't believe you have the capacity.

24 or 36 MP? For equivalent IQ, yes please. I cringe when a couple asked if they can have an image printed at 48" and I know I've already cropped the shot. In my town of 1 million there about 1000 individuals that claim to be pro photographers. How many actually only own a single body and kit lens? Probably half, but they do try VERY hard. Would they switch? Yup. Most want to trade up to a 5DIII or the D600, because they only have one or two lenses anyway.

Most of the Canon users (the non 1D crowd) are very surprised by the feel of the K5. I was equally surprised when I picked up a 5DII for the first time and thought it was a joke. Yes, they'll switch if they get the body in their hands. Canon ergonomics suck, at best it feels like a Playstation controller. At least Nikon makes real cameras for photographers, and not fauxtograohers. Sorry, end of rant.

This doesn't count the fact that every year there are that many new folks wanting to chase the dream or even just test the waters. I won't mention (much) the point about non-western markets; every year China graduates more genius level students from high school than the entire USA graduates students, period. I would assume India is the same. Wow.

How expensive is it for the 1% here? Not very. The top 1% of Canadians earn something like $190k+ per year, and that is just reported personal income, not net corporate income; so their are bigger $ being held as retained earnings for future years they want to take off and still draw dividends. Oh, and that's more than 270,000 people, and we are probably the smallest of the wealthy countries (not counting, y'know, Monaco...) I know folks who bought a 5DII as a family camera for fun. Dropping $500? That's a throwaway for a kids present on their 15th birthday. $5000? Dad wants a nice camera. $10000? Dad wants to be taken seriously. Anyone getting Leicas? I know of just one; he blew his bonus on it one year, figured 'oh what the heck'.

Those baby boomers? There are more of them in Canada today than there are working folks. Half are well off; the top quarter are so well off they know they can never spend it all (the other half? Cat food). A bunch are double or triple retirees (like my dad) - the last generation of them. Spending $5000 on a camera they enjoy is better than spending $100 a day on pills that make them 'better' (our healthcare ain't all free, or perfect).

I totally agree with the rest of your post.... The flagship K cameras have always been 'better', it's just hard to get them into the hands of the purchasers. At least here there are purchasers... Thousands of them. With no viable option they buy Canon, a few who might read up will buy Nikon, fanboys buy Sony, and fewer still discover Pentax.

If only we had the advertising you suggested...

Sigh...

10-18-2013, 11:31 PM - 1 Like   #39
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@noser -- good comments. Your 1,000,000-to-1000 ratio comes to .1%, if you guys think of a million as a thousand thousand like we do. And that gets us immediately to those upper-end baby boomers... because .1% is a very small market and most pros won't dump their glass investment.

But the baby boomers are a cash-rich target. And, being older, they know what cameras are, think of a good one as a prize possession, and won't deprecate them in favor of smartphones. No new tricks for these old dogs.

So then it gets very simple. Go after retired old guys, with the best camera you've got. Right now, that's the K-3. Easy marketing -- retired men in affluent postal-code areas. Some famous old guy as the ad testimonial spokesman. Etc. Win a free cruise in Pentax photo contests, or a least a year's supply of Viagra. Pentax... rock hard!
10-18-2013, 11:50 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
People here say they can't afford the full frame A7 for $1,698.
Thats what I dropped on K5 the day it was made available for order. I would happily throw that much at Pentax FF if it was released. If it was double that I would scrimp and save to pay for it. I'm not pro, I just want. Plenty of folks around that are that way inclined.
10-19-2013, 09:44 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
I bet you have not buy PENTAX lenses recently. For a person who wants to invest in PENTAX from zero, look at the lens price. They are not that far off from FF glass.
That's why you have to shop the used market. Let someone else enjoy the depreciation, or resulting rental fee for being able to use it first.
10-20-2013, 06:16 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
That's why you have to shop the used market. Let someone else enjoy the depreciation, or resulting rental fee for being able to use it first.
You mean like this 25 year old used Pentax lens ?

Pentax SMC A 135mm 1 1 8 Lens | eBay
10-20-2013, 06:40 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
That's why you have to shop the used market. Let someone else enjoy the depreciation, or resulting rental fee for being able to use it first.
For someone who is new, I'm afraid he/she will be hesitate to buy used glass as they are don't know much about lenses yet.
and if they evaluate the system by looking at MSRP prices, PENTAX does not have clear advantages that it used to have...
10-20-2013, 06:56 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
There are definitely more big spenders out there than you'd expect. All you need is the right product!
Exactly!!! I don't fit into any of the categories listed by the original poster, but will gladly open my wallet for a FF Pentax. You do not need to be rich to be willing to drop thousands of dollars on a new camera system. Nor do you need to be a professional. Nor do you need to have some compelling "use" for the better image quality. A lot of people are willing to spend money to indulge their expensive hobbies with no "good reason". Most of the people who buy expensive camera equipment are not rich, not professional, and they don't really need it. They simply want it, and can afford to indulge. Some may feel that it is a waste of money, but camera companies can generate a lot of revenue helping people to fulfill their materialistic impulses. Nothing wrong with that.

Dan
10-20-2013, 10:19 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
@noser -- good comments. Your 1,000,000-to-1000 ratio comes to .1%, if you guys think of a million as a thousand thousand like we do. And that gets us immediately to those upper-end baby boomers... because .1% is a very small market and most pros won't dump their glass investment.
Two things come to mind:

- half of all 'pros' - I mean the ones calling themselves pros, are really just owners of a kit lens, maybe one more (a kit zoom and nifty 50). They don't have a significant glass investment; they can dump and run at any time. They might hang out in the industry for a few years, but if they don't approach it as a business they eventually lose interest (and money) and move on. I'd even bet that in this crowd they tend to own crop format glass and would have to re-invest anyway.

- real 'pros', and I don't mean to be disparaging to the first group of kit lens owners, but those that perhaps come to mind when the word 'pro' is used in the sense of a successful, self-supporting business owner, either only have a small quantity of great glass that can be sold anytime, or even very little glass, choosing to rent the higher dollar glass (or lease) as needed. Sure, there are those that have 40 lenses, but a small set of primes and a couple of zooms really do the trick. Any fast glass can be sold, or practically traded, for any other system.

I've seen working pros switch from C to N, it's no big deal. Well, it was an emotional deal to them, but the ones I know seemed to have switched due to color and rendering preference, and a couple cited the fact that Nikon just 'got out of the way' of the creative process and let them shoot, which they liked. It happens!

QuoteOriginally posted by jon404 Quote
But the baby boomers are a cash-rich target. And, being older, they know what cameras are, think of a good one as a prize possession, and won't deprecate them in favor of smartphones. No new tricks for these old dogs.

So then it gets very simple. Go after retired old guys, with the best camera you've got. Right now, that's the K-3. Easy marketing -- retired men in affluent postal-code areas. Some famous old guy as the ad testimonial spokesman. Etc. Win a free cruise in Pentax photo contests, or a least a year's supply of Viagra. Pentax... rock hard!
That is hilarious! I can see it now... Alaskan cruises + Viagra + loaner lenses to entice more sales. Probably would fill a boat...
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